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[ovyyus]

It's not the first time someone tried to lower the bar to their level by dismissing 'experts'.

Just my opinion.

[WaltzCee]

Since I have a pretty good idea who you're bantering with (I've got that person blocked) I just see your replies JAL and my suggestion is he will always have the last word no matter what you say. His enjoyment comes from trolling people on the forum and subsequently sucking away your precious time from your build. Yes others will see the posts and he can sit there in his chair and feel so bloody proud that he got the last word, but at the same time - who will he argue with if nobody reads his posts or replies to them? When I find a member who wishes to argue, contribute nothing, and above all else cannot prove or show a working wheel - they speak with no more authority than someone who has just come here for the first time. Until a working wheel/mechanism is proven, nobody is an expert and that includes me.

At any rate, I get far more enjoyment out of reading your posts JAL, so it's a wonderful thing to be able to filter out the words of those I absolutely don't wish to read. They have the freedom to say it, but thankfully I have the freedom to ignore and that I do!

silent

The best you can do is 'a pretty good idea"? Jowls directly mentions his name.

Reminds me of little kids sticking their fingers in their ears saying blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

[ME]

ME, I'll explain a few simple facts to you, okay? In 1687 a guy names Isaac Newton published a book called Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica, https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/newton-principia/ .
In it he made known his 1st Law of Motion, Newton's First Law states that an object will remain at rest or in uniform motion in a straight line unless acted upon by an external force

You are not wrong with these facts.
Only you forgot to explain how that makes you don't agree with the math and the Laws of thermodynamics.

FWIW, I usually come here when I need a break from building stuff and see if I have something to add - without a reply, this would be an empty place.
I just as well may repeat that I'm not here for arguing. While I'm here I can just as well write all that stuff in the context as provided and for the third reader to provide a counter argument - I think it may be informative for some, I may be wrong.
Also mentioned earlier: don't like what I do, then press that red button.
<-- It's about there.
Lucky we have mrSilent and his incredible stream of contributes to save us all. Waiting in anticipation for his newest mind bender.

[JAL]

LOL! The blinded are the ones who don't have a working wheel. The non-blind are those who do have a working wheel.

That includes me.

Just my opinion.

silent

Can you see this &#128064;
It's an Australian eye exam &#128514;
I like her accent though.
https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/relat ... 9abd45b604

ME, I expect to be attacked in here. I'm not one of you guys. I guess I should be glad &#128522;

[silent]

.

[WaltzCee]

Dismissing experts? LOL! Nobody here has a working wheel and even if they do, until it's proven they don't.

if there is working wheel but SBD doesn't see it is it really a working wheel?

Speaking of nothing to show I just was perusing his album. Nothing to speak of, nothing to show. Mostly graphics that he snagged from here or snag from there. Yet he wants to set the standard? In the unlikely event he's ever houseguest lock up the silverware.

I guess the worst case scenario is it wouldn't run. LOL!

Worst case = likely.

[JAL]

Umm, Walt, it's kind of sad that in a forum about Bessler's wheel that the forum leaders don't think it's possible. That's one Hell of an irony. I just looked at your album and have looked at oyvvus', no work to show. And even if my build doesn't work it will be better than anything AB Hammer ever built. And all of his builds supported the "Keel Effect".
I don't think anyone ever complained about anything he built. Newton's 1st Law of Motion all the way. Poor attitudes might be because you guys feel threatened. Yeah! Darwin!
Aren't you guys actually defending never having tried? And with me, I have considered how realizing Bessler's work is how people will receive it. Kind of why I'm doing the extra work to do a nice build. Then if it works as designed then people might not think of perpetual motion as a joke. It won't be a reflection of some of the people in this forum.

@silent, I usually think of it as a gravity powered engine but if it works people will call it perpetual motion. Thing is, "if" Bessler was successful, what was he? A fraud?

[ovyyus]

...until the wheel is solved, nobody is an expert...

Your narrow definition of an 'expert' only serves your bar-lowering mission.

Someone might become an 'expert' by undertaking years of research to learn and understand Bessler's 18th C German text (no working wheel). Why shouldn't I value their expert knowledge above some low-bar opinion?

Someone might become an 'expert' by building and learning from many failed wheel designs (no working wheel). Why shouldn't they offer critique to someone pursuing a familiar failed design?

Someone might become an 'expert' in math (no working wheel). Why shouldn't they correct someones mistake?

[JAL]

oyvvus, remember, in here perpetual motion is considered impossible. That's gotten old. Credible about something that has been discredited.
Besides, if I am right, I probably wouldn't belong in here. It's not working very well now, is it? It would be awkward because I've been the problem when it wasn't me.

[WaltzCee]

@John Collins, if build works, then what? Should I have listened to the people who know what they are talking about but have no work to show? If you notice, there is no area in this forum where people can show their work without being exposed to ridicule.
I don't think you're going to have to worry about that. The scant work you miscalculate your wheel is going to produce will not be enough to overcome the inertia of that pile of kindling.

One forum leader stated that the purpose of this forum is not to realize Bessler's work but to discuss it.
You're being deceitful here no one ever said that. Pull the quote where anyone said that.

The structure of this forum supports your friend's statement. People who actually build shouldn't have to tolerate criticism from people who don't understand what is being developed. Research takes time as in many years.
You've been giving the Same Song & Dance for years, that you have the answer. People are tired of your tripe.

Umm, Walt, it's kind of sad that in a forum about Bessler's wheel that the forum leaders don't think it's possible.
What is actually sad is you're so overbearing and presumptuous as to think you know what people think. I'm sure you've noticed in the real world people don't fall in line behind your thinking. Things aren't that much different here.

[silent]

.

[JAL]

I'm sure you've noticed in the real world people don't fall in line behind your thinking. Things aren't that much different here.

I already know that Walt. Americans tell me all the time that just because I'm a disabled Veteran doesn't mean I deserve to have a life in the US. They tell me it depends on my willingness to be exploited.
Kind of why I'm looking forward to being successful and being able to visit the Netherlands and Germany.
There people like you won't be heard. I am willing to make you a bet. If my build works and is displayed with Bessler's book in the Netherlands, John Collins will visit the exhibition.
That's the big picture. John lives in England and the friendlies (soccer term, a friendly is a non-league match. The USWNT (US Women's World Cup Championship team) is playing a friendly with Portugal (I think) in Philadelphia) live in Germany. Wouldn't it be sad if me and him were in the same room in Utrecht and people heard me tell him that he should talk to you guys or I just ignore him?
Also you guys call research and development failed builds. &#128514;
Myself am tired of the senseless bickering.

[ME]

The depth of this topic becomes more fascinating when Lindgaard's comments get outhumoured and outsmarted by mrSilent's.
Under the radar, things apparently entered that cute phase of sharing pictures. Congratz.

I think we basically all mean to say somewhat the same thing.
(I understand it may take a few posts to trickle through mrSilent's own userblock, but I have great hopes)
I suspect (I don't know) the majority could more or less manage to settle on common unstable ground with an expression like:

• You can only become an expert on perpetual motion, when you have a perpetual motion machine
  A statement freely deduced and extracted from Silent's rhetoric: https://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/view ... 666#168666

Maybe a statement that still leaves some room for nuance, despite the inability of displaying any nuance at the source: Thanks ex Silentio!

It could start by raising a few sparked questions...
For example. I wonder how it actually works out when one postpones knowledge by waiting for a working perpetual motion machine to come along.
How would you know? How would you recognize? How would you proof to yourself and others that moment to finally know something arrived?

Seems logical to me that you first need to acknowledge that until you do, you absolutely don't have a perpetual motion machine.
-"Yet".
-"Perhaps".

The difference is, as I simply tried to convey in an earlier misunderstood epistle , there are still things we do know before. And we can make use of that.
It appears there are roughly two camps arguing here.
On one side we have the current state of physics, on the other side claims of knowing exactly nothing.
Truly, that latter is admirable to admit!
Even though I'm leaning only a little bit more to the former, I think I can understand how a lack of prejudice can help to discover new insights in physics.


<s> Lucky that at the same time camp No.2 in each post demonstrates how a situation with not even in the slightest and exactly zero prejudice works and looks like.

As I can't ignore that other gem in that linked post, I'm elongating this one:
- "How do you know what is right and what is wrong without a working example?" - Silent

What an awesome question by ex Silentio!
From this we can infer the following proposition:

• A working perpetual motion machine is required to determine that a perpetual motion machine can't work.

Now we have to figure out a way to determine how this proposition could possibly be false... who knows rhetorically where to start?
(still in s-modus here!)

Propositions aside, a mind bending brave new world opens up when we let the question sink in a bit.
I could go on and on with the variations, but just a few to get the idea:

- How do you know what is light and what is dark, when you can't see them both?

- How do you know what is silence and what is noise, without a headphone?

For those without an inner Sensei:
Now ponder that sentence in case where that ought to be a headphone with noise canceling.
By deductive reasoning I randomly guess you already considered the environment.
Was it always plugged in? And into what? Was that headphone also plugged in?

Important follow-up questions. But no one understands me.
¯\_(&#12484;)_/¯

</s>


As much as is tried to drive wedges...

You guys call research and development failed builds.

I think I can agree with that observation, when the implication gets reversed.
Failed builds are always essential parts of research and development.
How would one learn and improve?

[JAL]

@silent, this is like when I used to go to church. I read the wrong Bible.
Of course Utrecht has Bessler's original words. Of course, many in church believe they speak for the Bible. The reason the US in the 19th century was the most literate country in the world. It's because the Pentecostal church thought that people should read the Bible for themselves.
In here, it's still in the 17th or 18th century.

[WaltzCee]

One forum leader stated that the purpose of this forum is not to realize Bessler's work but to discuss it.
You're being deceitful here no one ever said that. Pull the quote where anyone said that.
.

You live in a fantasy world you're deluded stop trying to pull people into your delusions pull the friggin quote where this one forum member said this or stop lying about them.

I already know that Walt. Americans tell me all the time that just because I'm a disabled Veteran doesn't mean I deserve to have a life in the US. They tell me it depends on my willingness to be exploited.
Kind of why I'm looking forward to being successful and being able to visit the Netherlands and Germany.
There people like you won't be heard. I am willing to make you a bet. If my build works and is displayed with Bessler's book in the Netherlands, John Collins will visit the exhibition.
That's the big picture. John lives in England and the friendlies (soccer term, a friendly is a non-league match. The USWNT (US Women's World Cup Championship team) is playing a friendly with Portugal (I think) in Philadelphia) live in Germany. Wouldn't it be sad if me and him were in the same room in Utrecht and people heard me tell him that he should talk to you guys or I just ignore him?
Also you guys call research and development failed builds. &#128514;

Yes and the Queen of England will be there they'll serve tea and crumpets. All the Smitty's throughout Europe will parade before you with their anvils in their red high heels. They'll be begging you please James grab my anvil.