5:3 Preponderance and the ancient problem of Perpetual Motion

[silent]

.

[Oystein]

I would say that the 3 lower left weights of Bessler's MT 17 wheel "rests" as they hang hesitating to move along with the wheel..until.....in a flash it catches up..and becomes a part of the 5 that moves along with the wheel..

[silent]

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[Oystein]

Of course it wouldn't work! But Bessler wrote that "it will indeed be possible to look for a movement"..

Why wouldn't it work?

1. He say they wouldn't work, by themselves.
2. The machine wouldn't behave as drawn.
3. Because there are several missing parts..
4. Bessler wrote that "An acute mind will readily see and grasp what to make of this thing." It surely wasn't to build the machine he meant!

Parts are obviously missing to prove a thing or two.. we should observe and take note of it, then ponder why... but the motion...that's another story.. I think this motion of the falsely drawn MT17 is a basic necessary motion..

[murilo]

Fletcher, hi! Good morning! I would like indeed to know upon your opinion on my avalanche drive.

This is JUST an example, but main stuff is that there: 'geometric' surplus/gain and the goal we all look for, HENCE we use a kind of 'management' on it!

Best!
M

Hi murilo .. let's not clog up Oystein's thread with rehashed thoughts on your avalanche drive. I just spent a couple of hours re-reading the old threads on it from 2005 onwards and reading the analysis of others including myself at the time. My thoughts haven't changed on your design or one's similar to it I'm afraid.

The bottom line is that the forces are in equilibrium and that is why it/they do not turn.

What I will do is perhaps post something to your other threads that may help you see why it/they can't work. Perhaps a little different and simple way of looking at the problem than in the past. Something for you to think about.

To be fair, I highlighted your above comment about "management" because if the forces are in equilibrium then the task is to manage them to make them unbalanced, to have a shot at working.

Best -f

Fletcher, thx!
Even with that large fail, I got enough convivial with those 'potentials' hold by the hooks wheel in below!!!
Be sure! They behave and flush as liquid and the resistance to them are punctual! (weird stuff!)
Best!
M

[Senax]

I enjoy reading Oystein;s posts and find them stimulating for our endeavour and very interesting....In the past I looked at the 3-4-5-configuration ,well known by builders etc......

And masons. 😉

I see you have a fan, Oystein.

The History of Rasselas, Prince of Abissinia

Samuel Johnson, (18 September 1709 – 13 December 1784), Often referred to as Dr. Johnson,
was an English writer who made lasting contributions to English literature. Member of Old Dundee Lodge No. 18, London.

Surprise, surprise. 😎

[Oystein]

I am enjoying this thread Oystein. As you know I don't believe there are any coincidences where Bessler is concerned.
....
Also remembering from where Oystein is coming from on this. That Bessler was versed in many Masonic secrets and Euclid's geometry etc. And he would therefore likely know the story of Plato's Socrates and Meno, and Meno's Paradox for example ..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meno

Meno's paradox:

Meno asks Socrates: "And how will you inquire into a thing when you are wholly ignorant of what it is? Even if you happen to bump right into it, how will you know it is the thing you didn't know?" Socrates rephrases the question, which has come to be the canonical statement of the paradox: "[A] man cannot search either for what he knows or for what he does not know. He cannot search for what he knows--since he knows it, there is no need to search--nor for what he does not know, for he does not know what to look for."

Is this not what we are faced with ? YES This quote is the central part of it all. And also used in the ingress of my book. A hidden code/story (or simply; the truth of nature.. PM? etc.) without a public knowledge base and written answer. Where to look? What to look for? How to confirm? Who should confirm? The answer is always within us, Plato say..and thus in the geometric figure of Plato's Meno. Why? Because even the slave without knowledge of school did solve it himself, without knowing why. It was eminent in nature thus man ;-)

From Socrates Dialogue with Meno's slave we can see a famous and simple form of conveying knowledge and understanding thru picture building. You can read about the exact circumstances in the link above. Basically an uneducated slave is asked if he can determine how to double the area of a square (or halve it). The slave takes a few guesses, which are wrong. Socrates draws a square in the dirt and a diagonal bisecting it and asks him to verify that the square is now two equal triangles (1/2 area). The slave agrees that they are two equal triangles. Socrates says you don't need schooling to inherently see that (me paraphrasing). Then he uses the diagonal line as one side of a new square which is twice the area of the first. The slave sees it immediately as the method for doubling or halving squares. Pic example I just whipped up below. .... etc..

I would like to make the few interested to take a look outside Bessler again, and to modern times.. is the secret system/code (imo, also present in MT) still known? This is a little confirmation of Fletcher's comments and support of the small pieces of my work shown here.. (quote above).

It should be no surprise that the modern Rosicrucian order A.M.O.R.C Has as their background image on their facebook page: Namely: Raphaels painting of PLATO, where Plato is actually painted in the shape of Leonardo da Vinci. https://www.facebook.com/Rosicrucian.Order.AMORC/

I have stated for many years that da Vinci (and Durer, and Raphael etc.) did know of the ancient "internal" (esoteric) secret of Plato (a "follower" of Pythagoras that had his own secret society) and used that in their paintings. How and where the great artists did it is indeed the Rosicrucian secret, and their work. The meaning is then also a secret..

And there's a famous "finger-pointing" in this picture.. guess what da Vinci (in Plato's place) point at and Aristotle touches..

And we can also see from popular images that to find the truth of nature, outside the nature described in the Bible is what it is about:
https://twitter.com/AMORC/status/117434 ... 68/photo/1

Their page list the following philosophers that they study:
The works of the Great Philosophers including: Thales, Solon, Pythagoras, Heraclitus, Democritus, Empedocles, Socrates, Plato and Aristotle.

Their legacy is what I claim has a name: "The Stone of the Philosophers" and has a visual geometric appearance..and contains certain proofs and it has been preserved as a "code".

The order like to present it too:https://www.facebook.com/Rosicrucian.Or ... =3&theater

The RC secret is indeed connected to that of the pyramids: https://www.facebook.com/Rosicrucian.Or ... =3&theater Reminds us of Bessler's supposed Gravestone inscription... just like the person making up the inscription knew inside RC methods..and insinuate that Bessler was a RC. But what would a honoured Shakespeare translator know of such?

Finally, as my work explored; It seems the well preserved secret could be dating back to a secret/knowledge masons applied when building the great pyramids of Giza, and a mathematical metaphor for the pyramids through the pyramidal numbers 5:3(and 4) --> is "55". This seems like a possible explanation for their fascination for these pyramids..and that they say that their secret originates from the ancient Egypt of course..
https://www.facebook.com/Rosicrucian.Or ... =1&theater

So Mote It Be
ØR

[WaltzCee]

Masonic symbolism is everywhere.



If you enlarge that pyramid, you will notice it is constructed of a boatload of symbolism that
I just now noticed. I have no idea what all that stuff is. I used to think they were the
blocks the pyramid was made of. That's not the case. Take a better look.

[ME]

Of course, you could go full circle and buy a geometry set at the local dollar shop.

[Oystein]

If we stop using our imagination, but just look at what history say, or what is consistent through history..some things pile up... if something is consistent, it was more likely chosen and meant to be there..

The ONE Dollar Bill pyramid, is identical to "The Stone of the Philosophers" as drawn by the great Rosicrucian Michael Maier, published in 1617 (attached). Maier visited England in 1611 and is known to have given the worlds first and largest Christmas card depicting a Rose.. to King James after the publication og the KJV Bible in 1611. Maier became the physician of Landgrave Moritz of Hesse-Kassel (or Hesse-Cassel).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Maier

Some say that the stone is hidden within a code in the Bible.. History say that God was called Monas/Monad, ONE or Ein Sof..etc.. If so, this is why the ONE Dollar bill would be a perfect place to put "ONE".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monad_(philosophy)

If you look at George Washingtons memorial drawing you will see that Pythagoras' ONE is drawn on a Bible.. (attached) Is this the legacy of the ancient Philosophers encoded in the Bible, that Newton searched for all that time?

When you know what it really proves and how it was applied.. we can appreciate the importance of it.. until then..it just looks like random speculation that don't make you any wiser!

[Fletcher]

Oystein .. What you detail seems quite believable to me and I have no doubt that 'brotherhoods' have been and continue to be imbedded in todays societal ranks. Personally I don't have any problem with it or their hidden Geometry, Philosophy, alternative history etc. Man has always been tribal in nature. And if groups of men thru the ages chose not to toe the political or religious line of the times and went underground for fear of persecution then that doesn't seem surprising, even to be expected. I guess the movement is kept alive by the comradeship and the secrets. But we're not talking boy scouts here ;)

It is also not surprising to me that Bessler should be part of an underground culture such as the RC, also having esoteric interests in alchemy, occult, treasure hunting, and probably mysticism. He explored and educated himself in many many things.

And I also have no doubt that his books, and MT in particular, are absolutely dripping in what he learned. From use of Positive Prime numbers and Prime factoring, Pythagorean Numerology and Gematria, to JC's Pentagonal numbers and the importance of 5 etc ( http://www.theorffyreuscode.com/index.html ). To Masons 3-4-5 triangle (37 and 53 degrees), and Geometry. To CCW (13, 15, 113) v's CW drawings, upside down drawings (113), mirrored number drawings (47), handles being pulled down (30); meaning something of importance and not just random occurrences. To yours, Oystein Rustad's, Preponderance Theory of 3,5,8 supported by the missing lever-weights on ascending side concepts (10,14,113), and Albrecht Durer Transformations (ADT's), Orffyre 88, all being of real and practical importance in finding his motion and movement, and his PM principle.

So would it surprise me that Bessler would form a cipher trail that was an amalgam of all those 'arts' ? Not in the least !

The difference here being that ordinary ciphers are letters and/or numbers etc that hide a message to be found.

Hypothetically speaking. Perhaps the reverse is true of Bessler. We certainly have his messages in the notations of MT, and like the Meno and Socrates paradox we don't need to look for them, because they are found. What we have to do is break the cipher (requiring lateral thought and connections of reinforcement imo) to determine the relevance, ranking, and importance of each positive in the message. And then Bessler's intelligent design will perhaps become apparent, all going swimmingly well ... or be lazy and just reverse engineer the code after the answer is found ;7)

[Oystein]

I agree Fletcher..

As you know I also claim to have the full code and the end answer bot to the masonic coded message and Bessler's. Time will tell.

But let's use our intelligence and reason for a bit!

In 1717, the square and compass wasn't still an official symbol of Freemasonry or RC. It was a secret/hidden branch "logo".

Seen on numerous structures around the world, the square and compasses symbol with a G in the middle instantly marks a building as a Masonic entity. The start of this Freemasonry logo dates as far back as the 1780s,

So in 1717 the logo of the square and compass was still ONLY a secret!

Masons say that the Square and compass is a KEY in itself, and they ask; "what will it unlock"?

So let's think that Bessler hid, the still secret symbol of RC and freemasonry..the Square and Compass. The square and compass can be seen as the shortest possible scissor-jack.

In my opinion this is actually one of the basic mechanical similarities between the machine and the RC code.

Just my 2 cents

Best
ØR

[Oystein]

But back to the machine again.

If the problem of 3:5 should be totally mirrored or inverted there should not only be a 5:3 preponderance but also the low leverage arm should in addition be less in numbers..causing even more "greed". (Much want even more).

So if we add the astronomical instrument "Kreuz" (visually equivalent to the Christian Cross) and invert every property of the Perpetual Motion Problem. Making the preponderant 5 even more Greedy (turning 3:5 fully into to 5:3) it would look more or less like this..

(Attached is the classical problem of PM illustrated by 3:5 and an illustration of the configuration we should seek to solve that said problem by fully inverting the 3:5 problem and turning it into 5:3 (8).)

On our way to Bessler's PM secret (IMO).

This is as far I want to go.. but the rest has actually been said in here, so I believe the problem is sooner than later to be solved in an actual running config..

Best
ØR

[Fletcher]

I agree Fletcher..

As you know I also claim to have the full code and the end answer both to the masonic coded message and Bessler's. Time will tell. But let's use our intelligence and reason for a bit!

In 1717, the square and compass wasn't still an official symbol of Freemasonry or RC. It was a secret/hidden branch "logo".

Seen on numerous structures around the world, the square and compasses symbol with a G in the middle instantly marks a building as a Masonic entity. The start of this Freemasonry logo dates as far back as the 1780s,

So in 1717 the logo of the square and compass was still ONLY a secret!

So let's think that Bessler hid, the still secret symbol of RC and freemasonry .. the Square and Compass.

Mornin Oystein .. I wasn't aware of when the logo iconology became wide spread and public, thanks for that information. I agree that Bessler probably hid similar iconology in his works. I think there are very good instances that support that theory. We are all familiar with the DT portraits for example that have squares and compasses etc. And there is the link to B's. plaque placed above the front door to his house after his death. Pic attached (thanks to daxwc's album). Obviously not put there by Bessler. I don't know its origins but my guess is a 'friend'.

What I can do is share my own observations about the link to the Square and Compass logo in MT, which I think is pretty compelling (to me at least). And that has to do with the two forms of A. Particularly the bent-arm A we all know well. I could never pull together a properly coherent pattern in where and why he used them. And they were used prolifically, everywhere, sometimes both types in the same drawing. So what was that about if it wasn't a coherent logical code I could properly decipher, and predict its usage ? (not saying it isn't, just that I didn't see it). Of course it strikes us all at some time or other that the bent-arm A's are just representations of the 'logo' of square and compass, without the G for Geometry and God. So my conclusions were that it was in there for an important reason, because it was so common (reinforcement) but it's meaning was not clear to me other than to say go look at Pythagorean Geometry etc. And of course that leads to the 'X' and 3-4-5 triangles etc. The X being the connection to the simple way of drawing up the doubling of squares and circles (and other geometry) that you kindly shared with us recently Oystein. Continued in next comments.

Masons say that the Square and compass is a KEY in itself, and they ask;"what will it unlock"?

The square and compass can be seen as the shortest possible scissor-jack. In my opinion this is actually one of the basic mechanical similarities between the machine and the RC code.

Just my 2 cents.

Best
ØR

I also wasn't aware Oystein that Masons considered their logo held a key, and wondered what it would unlock, thanks again. That kinda fits quite well where I'm going with this.

I agree with you that the Square and Compass (SAC) is the shortest form of the Scissor-Jack possible, just one segment, tho some might argue that a > or <, or v or ^ is the shortest (E,E). And I entirely agree with you that if the SAC hid a Masonic secret that B. then hid in plain sight, prolifically, then there could well be shared dna between mechanical similarities of some physical element in B's. machines and the RC code.

Anyways, in my next post I'll share my observations and thoughts on the links between the Square and Compass logo, Kreuz, X, Storksbills, Scissor-Jacks, Student Forceps, Pantographs, Jacob's Staffs, Cross-Staffs, etc, and what I think is the logical connection to those same bent-arm A's of MT that I mentioned earlier as a bit of a mystery to me at times.

That is if they were more than just a message to look into Ancient Hidden Geometry, and perhaps also were a visual cue to a mechanical part and physical action important to his secret mechanism and PM Principle ? That would also explain why they were so ubiquitous in MT - provenance issues pre and post mortem !

[Fletcher]

But back to the machine again.

If the problem of 3:5 should be totally mirrored or inverted there should not only be a 5:3 preponderance but also the low leverage arm should in addition be less in numbers..causing even more "greed". (Much want even more).

So if we add the astronomical instrument "Kreuz" (visually equivalent to the Christian Cross) and invert every property of the Perpetual Motion Problem. Making the preponderant 5 even more Greedy (turning 3:5 fully into to 5:3) it would look more or less like this..


(Attached is the classical problem of PM illustrated by 3:5 and an illustration of the configuration we should seek to solve that said problem by fully inverting the 3:5 problem and turning it into 5:3 (8).)

On our way to Bessler's PM secret (IMO).

This is as far I want to go.. but the rest has actually been said in here, so I believe the problem is sooner than later to be solved in an actual running config..

Best
ØR

Hi again .. I'll just reproduce this again so I don't have to type it all out later.

Anyways, in my next post I'll share my observations and thoughts on the links between the Square and Compass logo, Kreuz, X, Storksbills, Scissor-Jacks, Student Forceps, Pantographs, Jacob's Staffs, Cross-Staffs, etc, and what I think is the logical connection to those same bent-arm A's of MT that I mentioned earlier as a bit of a mystery to me at times.

That is if they were more than just a message to look into Ancient Hidden Geometry, and perhaps also were a visual cue to a mechanical part and physical action important to his secret mechanism and PM Principle ? That would also explain why they were so ubiquitous in MT - provenance issues pre and post mortem !

You've done a good job of showing the basic problems with false PM wheels Oystein. Those are the ones where all forces end up in equilibrium and the wheel static. Too few weights on the descending side and too many on the ascending side. By the time their torques are calculated, dang if she don't balance out.

So you propose that if things could be mechanically arranged to be the opposite then a wheel's forces would not be in equilibrium and it would not find balance. And you propose that B. was pointing us in 3 of his diagrams to that 'generic' preponderance solution. A distinct possibility. It sounds a good approach if only we could find that mechanical arrangement that could achieve such a permanent result.

Bessler tells us in the MT messages that we need a 'Connectedness Principle, a correct handle and construction, a Prime Mover (reinforced in MT20 comments about horse in front of cart, imo), correct application of the stork's bills, something special behind the stork's bills, to highlight a few positive comments of substance he made. There are others.

Don't hold the edge of your seat now ;7) - it's pretty clear we need a Prime Mover, something like a handle in action, and to use the stork's bills correctly because there is something special about them. No direct mention of 'kreuz' tho, but obviously a stork's bill/scissor-jack and pantographs are to be seen and appreciated in the Toy Page.

So the question is asked is there a relationship between the 'handle of merit' and 'kreuz' (cross)/stork's bill ? Well the X segment is a form of instrument for manipulating leverage and forces. That's well known. No free lunches tho. It's a kreuz no doubt. But is it the right kreuz ?

Could Kreuz mean Jacob's-Staff (Cross-Staff), or a visual likeness to it as you have suggested Oystein ? To aid in the making of a mechanical instrument for some purpose not entirely known and of some notoriety ? Here my story and logic departs from your path. I think the Cross-Staff and the X, and indeed the V, have things in common, a common denominator if you will. They all visually show a potential to change angle of force application (torque) whilst they change shape. The X can even be imagined as part handle to be pulled or pushed if one leg acts as a fulcrum and the other is in a horizontal sliding slot for example. Lots of possibilities for variations in mechanical movement. The overriding thought being that whether it be Cross-Staff like, or X like, we need a 'movement' to somehow beget a 'motion' of the Preponderance Perpetual kind.

So how does this relate to the bent-arm A's in MT. Well, imo they are a version of the Kreuz - X, if you take a bent-arm A and bisect it vertically you have a natural born handle. A lever !

Don't strap yourself in just yet - this humble 'Jack (gaffle)' obeys all the Laws of Physics like a model citizen, violates nothing. Archimedes won't roll in his grave. It's just an ordinary lever with a sliding arm attached so you can move the handle around and apply force elsewhere. Nothing to look at here folks !

So if this 'gaffle' has no super powers, but is the key to unlock the Masons logo, then what secret does it unlock ? And if Bessler reveres the SAC's ordinariness then it must be linked up with the Prime Mover in B's. wheels which in turn causes a permanent Preponderance in his wheels, IMO. I do qualify that by maintaining that the Prime Mover is a separate entity to the rest of the wheel.

Roars from the peanut gallery - "It's too simple, it can't be THE handle ! Nothing special behind it !" Well, its not for loading Crossbows or springs etc that's for sure. Something to think about perhaps.