5:3 Preponderance and the ancient problem of Perpetual Motion

[gravityman52]

I like it...... however if you have ever used on of these little gems, it takes a tremendous amount of force. If you have tried to work the storks bill it requires a similar tremendous force to lift it from the closed position. IF, on the other hand it is not closed to a point where the levers are laying against each other the force to lift any weight of importance is much easier.

[Oystein]

Thanks Fletcher. As you mention, all these individual levers and crosses all obey the laws of physics..

What we need to look for is, what does NOT obey them? Or let's say what is the candidates that is still undiscovered / untested ?

I would say that the principle of preponderance from "Greed" is one candidate.

The preponderant "gang" want to keep or even increase their preponderance. Maybe they can, because they are stronger and outnumber the minor gang already? This would then have to be caused by the still un-verified contentedness principle..

[Oystein]

I like it...... however if you have ever used on of these little gems, it takes a tremendous amount of force. If you have tried to work the storks bill it requires a similar tremendous force to lift it from the closed position. IF, on the other hand it is not closed to a point where the levers are laying against each other the force to lift any weight of importance is much easier.

Yes, I think that is the whole point!

If not, as drawn by Bessler, in let's say MT41, the jack is opened again 1:1 by pulling a cord..

[WaltzCee]

Thanks Fletcher. As you mention, all these individual levers and crosses all obey the laws of physics..

What we need to look for is, what does NOT obey them? Or let's say what is the candidates that is still undiscovered / untested ?

I would say that the principle of preponderance from "Greed" is one candidate.

The preponderant "gang" want to keep or even increase their preponderance. Maybe they can, because they are stronger and outnumber the minor gang already? This would then have to be caused by the still un-verified contentedness principle..

A man was talking to my client and asked him, "what's a million dollars like to you?" My
client responded, "it's like a penny." Then the man asked, "what's a second like to you?", and
my client said, "it's like a million years."

So the man asked, "can I have a million dollars?" My client said, "Sure, give me a second."

It boils down to time management. The difference between power and energy is time.
The difference between a perfect flywheel and one that is perpetually imbalanced is
time management.

The mass of the wheel can be used to exasperate imbalance
Found in nature
A wheel that has a massive weight that barely moves is like a massive very cold glacier,
that cracks under its own weight. Then the friction below the glacier where that crack
extends, begins to form water. Eventually the water warms. Then it shoots up through the
crack and exasperates the crack, causing more cracking, and more imbalance.

Eventually the glacier begins to move. The glacier changes the landscape. Hills and Valleys
form by the mass of its weight. Rivers are created. Glory to God on high. Not one atom of creation
was made yet by the power of his word. Let's get the glacier moving, gentlemen. Let's change
the landscape. Let's make some Rivers. How many Clues do you needy Builders need?

The perfect flywheel
First needs to be cracked. An imbalance has to happen. And it has to happen on
the bottom of it. Also, its own weight can't be used to crack it. Its own weight can
be used to exasperate the crack.

Oystein has been the cause of some very good discussion. Since this is a discussion board,
I think the powers that be should show a little love and give him some respect.

to be continued. . .

[Oystein]

Hi again .. I'll just reproduce this again so I don't have to type it all out later.

Anyways, in my next post I'll share my observations and thoughts on the links between the Square and Compass logo, Kreuz, X, Storksbills, Scissor-Jacks, Student Forceps, Pantographs, Jacob's Staffs, Cross-Staffs, etc, and what I think is the logical connection to those same bent-arm A's of MT that I mentioned earlier as a bit of a mystery to me at times.

That is if they were more than just a message to look into Ancient Hidden Geometry, and perhaps also were a visual cue to a mechanical part and physical action important to his secret mechanism and PM Principle ? That would also explain why they were so ubiquitous in MT - provenance issues pre and post mortem !

You've done a good job of showing the basic problems with false PM wheels Oystein. Those are the ones where all forces end up in equilibrium and the wheel static. Too few weights on the descending side and too many on the ascending side. By the time their torques are calculated, dang if she don't balance out.

So you propose that if things could be mechanically arranged to be the opposite then a wheel's forces would not be in equilibrium and it would not find balance. And you propose that B. was pointing us in 3 of his diagrams to that 'generic' preponderance solution. A distinct possibility. It sounds a good approach if only we could find that mechanical arrangement that could achieve such a permanent result.

Bessler tells us in the MT messages that we need a 'Connectedness Principle, a correct handle and construction, a Prime Mover (reinforced in MT20 comments about horse in front of cart, imo), correct application of the stork's bills, something special behind the stork's bills, to highlight a few positive comments of substance he made. There are others.

Don't hold the edge of your seat now ;7) - it's pretty clear we need a Prime Mover, something like a handle in action, and to use the stork's bills correctly because there is something special about them. No direct mention of 'kreuz' tho, but obviously a stork's bill/scissor-jack and pantographs are to be seen and appreciated in the Toy Page.

So the question is asked is there a relationship between the 'handle of merit' and 'kreuz' (cross)/stork's bill ? Well the X segment is a form of instrument for manipulating leverage and forces. That's well known. No free lunches tho. It's a kreuz no doubt. But is it the right kreuz ?

Could Kreuz mean Jacob's-Staff (Cross-Staff), or a visual likeness to it as you have suggested Oystein ? To aid in the making of a mechanical instrument for some purpose not entirely known and of some notoriety ? Here my story and logic departs from your path. I think the Cross-Staff and the X, and indeed the V, have things in common, a common denominator if you will. They all visually show a potential to change angle of force application (torque) whilst they change shape. The X can even be imagined as part handle to be pulled or pushed if one leg acts as a fulcrum and the other is in a horizontal sliding slot for example. Lots of possibilities for variations in mechanical movement. The overriding thought being that whether it be Cross-Staff like, or X like, we need a 'movement' to somehow beget a 'motion' of the Preponderance Perpetual kind.

So how does this relate to the bent-arm A's in MT. Well, imo they are a version of the Kreuz - X, if you take a bent-arm A and bisect it vertically you have a natural born handle. A lever !

Don't strap yourself in just yet - this humble 'Jack (gaffle)' obeys all the Laws of Physics like a model citizen, violates nothing. Archimedes won't roll in his grave. It's just an ordinary lever with a sliding arm attached so you can move the handle around and apply force elsewhere. Nothing to look at here folks !

So if this 'gaffle' has no super powers, but is the key to unlock the Masons logo, then what secret does it unlock ? And if Bessler reveres the SAC's ordinariness then it must be linked up with the Prime Mover in B's. wheels which in turn causes a permanent Preponderance in his wheels, IMO. I do qualify that by maintaining that the Prime Mover is a separate entity to the rest of the wheel.

Roars from the peanut gallery - "It's too simple, it can't be THE handle ! Nothing special behind it !" Well, its not for loading Crossbows or springs etc that's for sure. Something to think about perhaps.

Yes Fletcher!

This (attached is from my private notes...

I think those parts in question.. The astronomical V-shaped Kreuz, the basic stork bill with the handle fit together, and mechanically support the same basic purpose/movement..

[silent]

When I see this diagram, I think of the flyball weights on a steam engine. Thanks for your thought provoking posts!

I really want to build my MT13/MT113 machine, but its complexity pitted alongside where you're going with this, makes me torn deciding whether to even try or not.

Argh.

silent

[WaltzCee]

Did someone fart?

No law from Newton will be violated.

Newton is going to be so violated.

[Oystein]

Actually as I recall it, it wasn't Newton himself that wrote the summary (PE)W=M*G*H as Joule was born a little later than Newton..

In my opinion:
I don't think Newtons laws will be broken..as they are basic one to one facts. But I think mr. Joule or his followers will get his nuts kicked a little.. as when weights coordinating other weights in space, it is NOT a part of any heat exchange..so leave Joule out of it.. then we must leave MGH out of it..in special cases. And Helmholtz will get kicked even harder for suggesting that all universal interactions works just as heat does.. based on a false premise that Besslers's machine never existed or worked... .. but NOT Newton!

[WaltzCee]

Too much irrelevant information.

[WaltzCee]

Also, too off-topic.

[ME]

Personally I don't have any problem with it or their hidden Geometry, Philosophy, alternative history etc. Man has always been tribal in nature.

I understand the view, but I'm here mostly for the wheel.
Yet most of the Geometry, Mathematics, Astronomy, Philosophy and other Sciences are ways to reveal the greater marvels of Ourselves, the World, the Universe and maybe even things beyond. Where the hidden unspoken motivator is to harness the power of the Gods and maybe even become Gods ourselves, or get an understanding of the process.
Most of the hidden stuff that is marked as hidden was not hidden before. While what gets revealed from mystery organisations only points narcissistically inwards. IMO, it gets no one no where and there's no evidence that shows a perspective outwards.
Hence the question I continuously ask is how it all connects to Bessler in a way that it may give us perpetual motion instead of sliding into mystery.

As you know I also claim to have the full code and the end answer bot to the masonic coded message and Bessler's. Time will tell.

Actually, only evidence will tell.

I revisited the Apologia wheel.
My conclusion thus far is that from what I can determine it can only be geometrically reconstructed by means of this "secret geometry" symbolism: hard to avoid and some random scribble without it.

I still have some issues. Issues like determining some line widths and the slight increased spread of the triangles - now 30° exact according to the used geometry. Hopefully 17ct drawing tools are to blame for discrepancies, or maybe the page photographer.
Otherwise we have to find/invent some hidden differential encoding scheme -- or maybe that's actually the idea...
When I'm done puzzling I could attempt a computer animation showing the reconstruction process for verification purposes. That should be fun. And very time consuming. So that will take a while.
Attached my current reconstruct-attempt (the result, not the method) and Bessler's print at the same scale to compare how 'off' it is.

I now simply assume that Oystein will confirm this with an "I told you so".
So we could entertain the question: what is it that Bessler thought "we needed to understand"? Maybe Oystein makes seriously good points!

It may come to no surprise that it means to me that such doesn't actually add to the credibility that Bessler seriously had a working machine. Bessler's perpetual motion as that only possible evidence was already a very delicate straw to grasp.

With this it may very well be that the sheer desire for Perpetual Motion was only used as an evil carrot to hide, attract and convey those things Oystein is talking about.

Implying: Perpetual motion only as a metaphor?

[Oystein]

To me, it seems like Bessler's wheel was a special variation of the unworkable avalanche-drive..in a circular configuration. But added both springs and a weight handle-construction to open and close all the drives joints/kreuz and extend and contract the "train" by loading/unloading the springs, torques and spacing..

[Oystein]

Personally I don't have any problem with it or their hidden Geometry, Philosophy, alternative history etc. Man has always been tribal in nature.

I understand the view, but I'm here mostly for the wheel.
Yet most of the Geometry, Mathematics, Astronomy, Philosophy and other Sciences are ways to reveal the greater marvels of Ourselves, the World, the Universe and maybe even things beyond. Where the hidden unspoken motivator is to harness the power of the Gods and maybe even become Gods ourselves, or get an understanding of the process.
Most of the hidden stuff that is marked as hidden was not hidden before. While what gets revealed from mystery organisations only points narcissistically inwards. IMO, it gets no one no where and there's no evidence that shows a perspective outwards.
Hence the question I continuously ask is how it all connects to Bessler in a way that it may give us perpetual motion instead of sliding into mystery.

As you know I also claim to have the full code and the end answer bot to the masonic coded message and Bessler's. Time will tell.

Actually, only evidence will tell.

I revisited the Apologia wheel.
My conclusion thus far is that from what I can determine it can only be geometrically reconstructed by means of this "secret geometry" symbolism: hard to avoid and some random scribble without it.

I still have some issues. Issues like determining some line widths and the slight increased spread of the triangles - now 30° exact according to the used geometry. Hopefully 17ct drawing tools are to blame for discrepancies, or maybe the page photographer.
Otherwise we have to find/invent some hidden differential encoding scheme -- or maybe that's actually the idea...
When I'm done puzzling I could attempt a computer animation showing the reconstruction process for verification purposes. That should be fun. And very time consuming. So that will take a while.
Attached my current reconstruct-attempt (the result, not the method) and Bessler's print at the same scale to compare how 'off' it is.

I now simply assume that Oystein will confirm this with an "I told you so".
So we could entertain the question: what is it that Bessler thought "we needed to understand"? Maybe Oystein makes seriously good points!

It may come to no surprise that it means to me that such doesn't actually add to the credibility that Bessler seriously had a working machine. Bessler's perpetual motion as that only possible evidence was already a very delicate straw to grasp.

With this it may very well be that the sheer desire for Perpetual Motion was only used as an evil carrot to hide, attract and convey those things Oystein is talking about.

Implying: Perpetual motion only as a metaphor?

I have attached you'r reconstruction attempt.. I didn't really get why you try to reconstruct? when you have the original.. Now the original Geometry doesn't fit as well..

Are you trying to back engineer the now invisible base geometry used? Or just make a nicer looking "AP Wheel"?

If so, I guess you are familiar with what book I think it originates from? That you can design this figure from only 3 and 5 in a circle. The ref. to that problem is in one of Euclid's Elements" thus among human histories most known "problem" .. https://mathcs.clarku.edu/~djoyce/java/ ... ments.html

3 and 5 has a very special meaning, (Like The creator, Jesus or base for all things) and is a masonic tradition, I can assure you.

By asking these question above , I think you answer you own questions :-)

Why do I say that..?

Without knowing Euclid's elements, knowing what they knew about geometry at that time, we will simply not understand what they draw or write about. Is it a now forgotten tradition we see..or is all talk of the PM wheel? How can we know if we don't know what they all knew and did at that time? As an example, Is a "Seer" something in the wheel? Or is it simply a ref. to Astrology, the Zodiac (MT 137) and Tarot cards as a numeric system?

I showed how it seems Bessler draw Euclid's Elements, when he writes the same Bible verse/numbers as in Euclids problem, and even abbreviate Matthew to (Matth.) even if abbreviation was not used just above in the text.. So by saying Matth. He actually don't say Matthew!!, but could also imply: Matthematik. The greates Math. "Bible" of all times (2300 years of age) are Euclid's Elements.. and can create the AP figure below.. I guess you remember those posts I made some time ago...

I see you are more open to the fact that fruitful knowledge can come from researching Bessler's written and drawn work in a broader view, and that's good.

I can only repeat that I think we must understand as much as possible of the tradition and the possible meanings of things, in a historical perspective before we attach all research to a PM-machine. This will clearly fail at once.

I think it certainly would be wrong to put Pythagoras theorem directly as a mechanism onto a wheel. First we must research deeply...what did his peers and Bessler use the theorem for? When we get that answer, we must apply it thus, and just see what happens.. We can't decide up front.. Will we find a unknown formula...a known formula, a cipher system, a word.. a mechanism? Somebody got to do that hard work.. People will always build thing, but not many will do that work..

I wish you all good luck..

I'm starting to feel a little better from my back and leg pain and will work more (corporate computer, networking and security) and be less avail. here in the future..

Best
ØR

[Oystein]

Well, about investigating any aspect of a "forgotten" or secret but public tradition around Bessler.. here is what happens if I'm correct about:

Weissenstein --> Weisenstein --> Stein der Weisen --> Stone of the Wise --> The philosophers Stone.

The philosophers Stone IS about Squaring the Circle.

This is the first step or proof that this is just what is going on.

Bessler knew The Philosophers Stone of RC - ref. Michael Maier.

The Philosophers are thus Pythagoras, Plato Socrates, Aristotle etc.

Plato, the great Philosopher of all time gave us a challenge: Who can square the circle by only a compass and straightedge...

[Fletcher]

Here's a go at it I did in another thread years ago, compared to using Pi and the math only.