5:3 Preponderance and the ancient problem of Perpetual Motion

[ME]

@ ME .. I'm mostly interested in where/whether the nuances leads towards a physical device and the proof of PM too.

When did any of those 'nuances' point to some information outside their own realm? The self-referencing is for its own sake, promising the world but getting you nowhere but inviting you to stare at their navel too.

I have also entered a standard Pentagon. And we can see that the differences get very hard to see..

Even the ancient Greeks knew how to create a perfect regular pentagon.
Bessler was very well capable of drawing a perfect Dodecagram (MT 137).
Isn't that the whole point of using only Square and Compass!

I understand the sentiment of wanting it there, but the pentagon is seriously off when using the 3-4-5 triangle as a template.

[Fletcher]

@ ME .. I'm mostly interested in where/whether the nuances leads towards a physical device and the proof of PM too.

When did any of those 'nuances' point to some information outside their own realm? The self-referencing is for its own sake, promising the world but getting you nowhere but inviting you to stare at their navel too.

That's one way to look at it. Entrapment in a fruitless waste of time, for the amusement of a few. Many would feel that way and not bother getting caught up in it any further. End of story. No harm no foul.

My thoughts are it's like learning a new language, except as Oystein's little picture challenge shows ( https://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/view ... highlight= ), you don't have to know the Norwegian language. So it's a 'language' that has some rules and order. And like all languages some are better speakers and writers than others. All are not equal. That allows everyone to get something out of it whatever level you are. Personally I've only peaked under the covers, not even close to pulling them back, in that regard. Just not overly interested in that aspect I guess. I figure Oystein, or other readers of this discussion board who are fluent with that language, would have a very good head start in determining if there is any ground breaking 'information' of import, or indeed if there is from an actual physical device up to a completed PM wheel detailed in Bessler's works.

We know there isn't one drawing showing a complete wheel showing a movement and a motion. We know we have to look at a few and infer things and connections, and still use our minds. I maintain that using the RC/Bessler language (many different archaic approaches) that it reinforces certain picture numbers as having a priority and significance. I don't even know that I've uncovered all the links tho Oystein will be close to having a full picture. But still you have to bring it all together mechanically IMO. So even knowing the language may not help some very much.

So what would be the purpose of a hidden visual language, that was cross geographical, racial, cultural, language, political, and religious boundaries ? To share some information I guess, at some or various levels. Plenty of its 'speakers' would never know what all that information was, or was about. It might even get forgotten over time, but for a few, or even eventually none. So the language might migrate into other works by a clique with none the wiser about its true origins or any hidden information at its origin, for instance. So Oystein (and others who are in the clique) look for the visual language in other works. Oystein says he found it in various famous works including Shakespeare's folio's for instance. Many even look for it in the bible as confirmation of something ? I think Newton looked for the philosophers stone there as well. They must have thought there was some important hidden information, and not just a shopping list. If it's elsewhere then the bird has flown the coop, and has its own legitimacy for others.

And so whilst it was no great surprise, it was however new information to me when Oystein said that the Masons (Free Masons) with RC roots and connections believed that their Square and Compass logo held a key, to unlock what ?

So in 1717 the logo of the square and compass was still ONLY a secret!

Masons say that the Square and compass is a KEY in itself, and they ask; "what will it unlock"?

So let's think that Bessler hid, the still secret symbol of RC and freemasonry..the Square and Compass. The square and compass can be seen as the shortest possible scissor-jack.

In my opinion this is actually one of the basic mechanical similarities between the machine and the RC code.

They had forgotten ! And knowing the language and knowing the logo was a key still didn't help them determine what it could possibly unlock ? They are just mechanical instruments, and not very exciting ones at that !

And then it appears that Bessler also hid the SAC logo in plain sight in his works. That is if you believe he was a member of the order, or at least had learned its kunst. But even if he was why would he bother with its inclusion at all ?

Just maybe his PM secret and the RC/Free Mason secret (hidden key and lock) were linked, if not one and the same. He had either found the free-energy from gravity secret himself and saw the similarity to the logo and so decided to include it, or learned the secret and the key after hearing that the logo (not yet public) held information (a key), from archaic sources, the RC's, Rabbi's, etc.

Sounds like a rollicking good yarn that would make an excellent novel and film. But what if it weren't just Hollywood BS. It doesn't hurt me to think about such things. In fact I find Oystein's contributions mostly entertaining and enlightening. I can take them or leave them if I want.

Will knowing some of that language help us unravel MT. Only if we suspect a language exists in there in the first place, and then go looking for its rules and syntax. Maybe there's a wheel in sheep's clothing to be found in MT, but I suspect it's a little harder to put it all together than that. Maybe knowing number codes and geometry etc will help in the search; maybe you don't need it at all and are not greatly disadvantaged ? I believe the latter !!

In the mean time I enjoy the discussion.

[John Collins]

Excellent comment fletch. I lean towards Bessler being familiar with RC/Masonic stuff and including some of it in his work just because it was interesting and fascinating to him - and he thought it might attract the interest of those who few were also into RC/Masonic secrets.

But also it must have been in his mind that such inclusions would tempt people to look for further information relevant to his wheel. I’m certain that the ‘Declaration of Faith’ in chapter 55 in AP holds a large amount of information, and you can see some of the work I’ve done to date at http://www.orffyreus.net/html/chapter_55.html

PS, my apologies for several weird typos in the web page, it doesn’t affect the understanding of the text, it happened during the intervening years since I published it in 2010, some kind of update to the site.

JC

[Oystein]

ME: About the AP drawing, I think you are treating it a bit "unhealthy".

Why would you tilt sideways two 3-4-5 triangle to prove that 36,86 degrees x 2 is not the same as 36 degrees x 2 ?

I guess when they drew geometry they used a square and worked horizontally and vertically and that 90 degrees was the ONLY fundamental true locked angle. So it should not be a tilted 2 x 3-4-5 triangles.

AND the result is different if you use the first, the inner or the outer lines of the circumference. We must also remember that this tiny!! woodcut was made from a hand draw geometric drawing..

But I think it is just as likely that the picture prove how to make a pentagon inside a circle, from only Platonic/masonic Cross and squares method..called a checkerboard..

I have added e red 3-4-5 triangle from basic Plato's Meno methods of halving. No better accuracy could be expected from square and compass on small paper! The 3-4-5 doesn't perform better. but another (blue dot) looks cool!!

If we work symmetrical and by hand drawn tool type accuracy the pentagon fits well. (the 3-4-5 no better)

Keep playing with it, but the method can be found in The Elements!

And to support JC's original finding I also will attach a true symmetric pentagon, unbiased, placed inside the inner rim. To be hand drawn by Bessler and on to woodcut, it fits exceptionally well.

Modern accuracy is more a problem than a solution I think!

You may think otherwise and that is fine. But you can't say that the attached AP-drawing with the Pentagon disproves it being the hand-drawn target.. And to create a Pentagon inside a circle by square and compass on paper is not that consistent..

Finally, if it would be the target there, I think it is more likely that a 3-4-5 could be drawn as attached on a checkerboard grid, to simulate a Pentagon, only missing by 0,86 degrees for simplicity only..

Best
ØR

[Oystein]

But, of course, the AP figure has much more to it.

As an example:

Why is it only 3 white fields in the circle? How to defend that? If it should hold any reverse engineering information or proof, we/Bessler must not only defend it, but prove it! Why should the chosen figure hold 3 equally spaced fields?

How can it be proven?

1. If it only is a description of Bessler's mechanical secret, it can't be proven without showing the accuser a working wheel!
2. If it is not only a description of his secret but[ b]also[/b] based on some prior Geometric figure existing in print prior to and known to Bessler, and it can be pointed to, then it CAN be proven. And applying that original figure, the secret should appear.
3. To be able to prove that this was Bessler patent or original meaning, the text above must contain clues to the whereabouts of this known figure.
4. If it should have any meaning for Bessler to do this, all the above combined must be true!

So can it be proven?

First criteria: Some figure existing in print and known to Bessler must consist of a circle and a symmetric triangle, with three ends equally spaced around that circle. (Many exist)
Second criteria: etc..
etc

What if it was this?

(No other historical Math./Geometry figure as I have seen, can defend Bessler's AP figure..and text.)

So don't ye still understand? that:
D, I, D, V, C, C, V, V, D, I = 35 Three and Five!!

4+1+4+5+3+3+5+5+4+1 = 35
(As I wrote originally I=1 and V=5 in English alphabet gematria too!!
Because J (9)holds the place of I ond U (20) holds the place of V.

I'm amazed by someone not seeing the beauty unfold.. But..ye still don't understand I guess.. :) Have a nice weekend!!

[WaltzCee]

My thoughts are it's like learning a new language, except as Oystein's little picture challenge shows ( https://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/view ... highlight= ), you don't have to know the Norwegian language.

Maybe a system where people begin to think like computers.

The idea, however, that human brains, the world’s most compact and effective
thinking systems, are actually random machines is not really very bright. Markov
models work by obviating human intelligence and knowledge.

• Whether analyzing speech without knowing the language (Shannon and Baum),
  
  gauging the importance of webpages without knowledge of either the pages or the
  evaluators (Page and Brin),
  
  measuring the performance of computing machines while ignoring 99 percent of the
  details of the system (A. L. Scherr),
  
  investing in stocks and bonds with no awareness of the businesses that issue them
  (Renaissance),
  
  or identifying authors without any knowledge of what they wrote or even the language they
  write in (Markov himself),

these procedures are marked and enabled by their total lack of intelligence. You use big
data statistics and Markov probability models when you don’t know what is really
happening. Markov models are idiot savants that can predict either a random pattern or a
planned process without the slightest understanding of either. For its future, the
industry must move beyond them.

An effort at dehumanization.

[Oystein]

And so whilst it was no great surprise, it was however new information to me when Oystein said that the Masons (Free Masons) with RC roots and connections believed that their Square and Compass logo held a key, to unlock what ?

Well Fetcher, In my opinion I think the quote actually meant:

The Square and compass is a key! So what will it unlock..? You don't know... but we do!

So it is some type of "invisible" cipher key/symbol then...through unknown methods in unknown places in known material...

(If the secret actually also at some time include Bessler's principle, I don't think others than very few special of high rank would be allowed to know.. I Don't say it is impossible to crack this by Masonic means and keep it as the ultimate secret "to die for". But I don't have so much belief in humans in general. But I belive their secret to be of only scientific, historical and of the highest theological importance, encoded in Art and Literature. I found and can prove that the Jesuit Pope Francis and the Vatican know the whole secret of RC and Masonry and the KJV Bible/Jesus/LesVs code etc. The Jesuits was at one time locked out of RC, and that is when Masonry appeared..

Facts: (quotes collected over time)
The masons say that they are not a secret society, but a society with secrets.. These secrets are avail in public/Internet but they are not allowed to tell us where to look. They also say their secrets originate pre Christ, and dates back to ancient Egypt.. Therefor the pyramids.. and something about Pythagoras formula and Euclid's Elements..and something about the sun being the center of the planetary system..etc.

So far, all this information above is public..

Now we need to use the square and compass on public books or paintings, and we should be able to unlock the secret!

Best
ØR

[Fletcher]

Excellent comment fletch. I lean towards Bessler being familiar with RC/Masonic stuff and including some of it in his work just because it was interesting and fascinating to him - and he thought it might attract the interest of those who were also into RC/Masonic secrets.

But also it must have been in his mind that such inclusions would tempt people to look for further information relevant to his wheel.

That has to be a component John for sure. Bessler did hunt for treasure. And you usually don't do that without a map. And even if he didn't find treasure he would have seen first hand the commercial opportunities and marketability a clever map and backstory could generate. The excitement of riches just out of reach, of being drawn to the map looking for X marks the spot. Pity for him he would eventually have to accept post mortem recognition and not a sale of his wheel.

Well Fetcher, In my opinion I think the quote actually meant:

The Square and compass is a key! So what will it unlock..? You don't know... but we do !

So it is some type of "invisible" cipher key/symbol then...through unknown methods in unknown places in known material...

(If the secret actually also at some time include Bessler's principle, I don't think others than very few special of high rank would be allowed to know..)

Layers upon layers like a layer cake. How could any one man reasonably know they had reached back all the way in time to a definitive but figurative 'big bang'. Maybe the Square and Compass iconology was a key to more than one lock ? A lock of which the Masons et al didn't know it was the key for ? And B. appropriated it for his own purposes ?! A little inside joke. Fun to think about.

Well, I'm drifting away from the title of the thread but I think Oystein you should collaborate with a known writer of repute, and co-author a fiction book, sticking as close to the truth as you know it to be. It's all in the plot development, wit and style of writing, on whether you'd have a best seller. Now that would be a map !!!

Maybe you could call it .. insert something upbeat and catchy :)

[WaltzCee]

(If the secret actually also at some time include Bessler's principle, I don't think others than very few special of high rank would be allowed to know.. I Don't say it is impossible to crack this by Masonic means and keep it as the ultimate secret "to die for". But I don't have so much belief in humans in general. But I belive their secret to be of only scientific, historical and of the highest theological importance, encoded in Art and Literature. I found and can prove that the Jesuit Pope Francis and the Vatican know the whole secret of RC and Masonry and the KJV Bible/Jesus/LesVs code etc. The Jesuits was at one time locked out of RC, and that is when Masonry appeared..

A Startling Bible Code Find

"Yeshua Shai" (Jesus the Gift)

"Who hath ascended up into heaven or descended? Who hath gathered the wind in His
fists? Who hath bound the waters in a garment? Who hath established all the ends of the
Earth? What is His name, and what is His son's name, if thou canst tell?" (Proverbs 30:4)

What is His son's name? Starting with the first yod, counting every 22nd letter spells – you
guessed it – Yeshua shai, which means "Yeshua, the Gift." Yeshua means Jesus in
Hebrew. What's left to say?

Yacov Rambsel



Are these the kind of Jesus codes you're talkin about, Oystein? A guy named Grant R. Jeffrey
Has studied Bible codes for a very long time. I don't know Hebrew to be able to check the code.
What are LesVs codes?
http://www.bibleprobe.com/jesuscode.htm

[Oystein]

Well, I'm drifting away from the title of the thread but I think Oystein you should collaborate with a known writer of repute, and co-author a fiction book, sticking as close to the truth as you know it to be. It's all in the plot development, wit and style of writing, on whether you'd have a best seller. Now that would be a map !!!

Maybe you could call it .. insert something upbeat and catchy :)

No, I won't :-)

But actually because the 3:5 was questioned, I went back to it, and because I claim others see Jesus Christ as 3:5 as a part of the 3-4-5 triangle, I add that by the English Gematria, 55 is also leading to RC's Jesvs..

So I say that it could have been that Bessler thought his machine also could be described by the same Pythagorean and Masonic figures. Before you can judge you have to know those said figures and methods of course.

I still claim they all just lead straight to the Philosopher's Stone. The ancient quest or task. I then claim the story of Jesvs is at least adjusted (if not even more fictional) to fit that said Philosopher's Stone, as Newton said.

The Masonic Secret is about the implications. Like what does it mean if all the most important Christian paintings in history, really is drawn based a pre-Christ figure of Pythagoras? Called the philosophers stone.. This is what many call the dark secret of the church.. The Jesuits know, so Bessler knew. and since the square and compass the symbol of the philosopher's stone and A Square and compass equivalent is his mechanism, it seems fit to say The Philosophers Stone (Jesvs) J+e+s+v+s = 55 and 3:5 was indeed "his" secret..

So let's put X in the Keruz.. and we are starting to get closer..

[Oystein]

(If the secret actually also at some time include Bessler's principle, I don't think others than very few special of high rank would be allowed to know.. I Don't say it is impossible to crack this by Masonic means and keep it as the ultimate secret "to die for". But I don't have so much belief in humans in general. But I belive their secret to be of only scientific, historical and of the highest theological importance, encoded in Art and Literature. I found and can prove that the Jesuit Pope Francis and the Vatican know the whole secret of RC and Masonry and the KJV Bible/Jesus/LesVs code etc. The Jesuits was at one time locked out of RC, and that is when Masonry appeared..

A Startling Bible Code Find

"Yeshua Shai" (Jesus the Gift)

"Who hath ascended up into heaven or descended? Who hath gathered the wind in His
fists? Who hath bound the waters in a garment? Who hath established all the ends of the
Earth? What is His name, and what is His son's name, if thou canst tell?" (Proverbs 30:4)

What is His son's name? Starting with the first yod, counting every 22nd letter spells – you
guessed it – Yeshua shai, which means "Yeshua, the Gift." Yeshua means Jesus in
Hebrew. What's left to say?

Yacov Rambsel



Are these the kind of Jesus codes you're talkin about, Oystein? A guy named Grant R. Jeffrey
Has studied Bible codes for a very long time. I don't know Hebrew to be able to check the code.
What are LesVs codes?
http://www.bibleprobe.com/jesuscode.htm

No, I haven't studied such before..

I have looked into Gematria by Gnosticism.. http://www.esotericonline.net/group/chr ... d-triangle

I have only taken notes of the most basic findings, to see if they fit that of Pythagoras/Platon and the RC Philopsopher's Stone..

Later, when printing was launched and automated, it was also possible to use print as some kind of accurate picture. Thus it was much simpler to build accurate geometry from a text. That is what the RC or Royal printers and artist code I claim I found. If it indeed was a secret way of printing a second message into the printing press, I think Bessler would have known.. The English Bible that was set in scene by a "Freemason" or at least a protestant in 1611 has such a code, I clam. This was under the protestant war/revolution. King James of Scotland, Ireland and England was a protestant and many say a freemason/RC. This code is not public, but I have attached some pictures in earlier threads from other similar codes found placed by a English printing press! I have also wondered if this is where the title Keeper of the Royal Secret stems from.. In my opinion, by the printing press, they found a new way to convey the philosopher's stone, just as many had done in paintings and Gematria earlier! It's popular for Scottish Rite Masons to swear on a KJV Bible ;)

[WaltzCee]

I then claim the story of Jesvs is at least adjusted (if not even more fictional) to fit that said Philosopher's Stone, as Newton said.

The New Testament was so widely distributed that it would be impossible for King James
to alter the text. He would have had a better chance of squaring the circle than altering the
text of the New Testament.

The New Testament is one of the most accurately transmitted documents from Antiquity.
That's a fact.

The New Testament has been preserved in more manuscripts than any other ancient work of literature,

• with over 5,800 complete or fragmented Greek manuscripts catalogued,
  
  10,000 Latin manuscripts and
  
  9,300 manuscripts in various other ancient languages including Syriac, Slavic, Gothic, Ethiopic, Coptic and Armenian.
  
  The dates of these manuscripts range from c. 125 (the {\displaystyle {\mathfrak {P}}}{\mathfrak {P}}52 papyrus, oldest copy of John fragments) to the introduction of printing in Germany in the 15th century.

King James would not have had a prayer altering the New Testament. I'm really intrigued
as to what evidence you would have to the contrary.

It seems you're saying that they played around with a geometry of the text. That I don't doubt.

[Oystein]

The New Testament was so widely distributed that it would be impossible for King James
to alter the text. He would have had a better chance of squaring the circle than altering the
text of the New Testament.

Of course, I never wrote that.

I said a new kind of code was applied, not present before printing press! (1400-1500s) A long time after the New testament itself!

I didn't say the meaning of the text was changed. Since the code mainly is Geometric. I only said that the original Gnostic hidden meaning..like the figure Newton mentioned could now be conveyed in a new way.

- For example. they could choose where the headlines and numbering and side-comments are placed.

- They could have middle divided pages.

- They could change the spelling of certain words (this was the time where KJV BIble and Shakespeare established a common new English language platiform or consensus it is said.

- They could choose the jump to the next line without a real need for it.

- They could choose huge crazy fonts for the first letter, making everything else move...

- They could substitute a word for another of equal meaning. Like this or that rose.. insted of this or that ascended..

- They could change I for J

- They could change u for v

- They could introduce new spellings or "errors" like morall instead of moral instead of mural..

King Iames Bible... Why King Iames not King James? (Example for fun, not a part of any documentation). But I think this was the intention. I think this kind of stuff assisted when choosing the spelling of many words..

I+A+M+E+S = 37 (as in the 3-4-5 triangle of the rose cross).
J+A+M+E+S = 45 (and not a part of any rose cross)

And a visual bonus for the initiated reader.?

I am E S
I am 5 S
I am 55

King IAME5 ?


Best
ØR

[raj]

Does Human KNOWLEDGE comes from Christianity Alone?

Raj

[Oystein]

People of Christianity are just as stupid as people of any other religion..

I belive, if it wasn't for religion we would be 500 - 1000 years ahead in scientific development and understanding of our universe...