Is there by now 2019 a list of 'correct' quotes anywhere on this forum?

[Oystein]

I think the Wiki has room for a new consensus-translation of the most important quotes...

What about discussing quote by quote on the forum, and end up with one or two versions from consensus and add to a new Wiki page?

When the wiki is updated, we discuss a new quote.

Somebody must be the manager of this process, while we all can contribute..

https://www.besslerwheel.com/wiki/index ... =Main_Page

Good luck

[John Collins]

Speaking for myself, it’s not an unwillingness to see my published translations corrected, so much as translation fatigue, ( if there is such a thing). Reading and rereading stuff I published about twenty years ago, is brain numbing and as I didn’t do the work myself, I am not the best person to join in any thread about what Bessler said or meant. In days gone by I used to leap to the defence of Mike Senior, who became a good friend, who translated everything I asked him to, but he has passed on, and it has been so long since he did the work that I see no need to protect his name any longer. His work remains as the chief source of English versions of Bessler’s books and he will always be credited with that.

Jayson, I detect a mildly waspish tongue in your posts which seems to me to reflect a mood of annoyance with some responses you get. Perhaps I’m wrong but there are definite signs of sarcasm present.

JC

[WaltzCee]

I've noticed it also Mr. Collins. I want everyone to know that I am resisting the urge to
undress this fine individual.:-)

I'm very proud of myself.

[JHB]

@ME

I like your last post ME. It shows some vision as to the task at hand without bias. Simple analytics.

You must however remember that I did not mean everyone in here must drop what they are doing, but rather jump in as they can or just those interested can jump in head first.

For instance, since you mentioned the handwriting in MT which interests me too. Lets say we post a nice big scan of MT1-MT?? as single consecutive posts in a forum section like John Collins has called 'Translations MT'. Now everyone can comment on the text and we see where we get. At least now if you want to discuss/learn something about a specific MT's language/translation there is a single link to click. There can also be a post that discusses the whole to see if there is something to learn from the way Bessler's writing changed over time as he did the cuts.

The fact that you cannot update a post after you have created it in this forum is almost as big a violation of user rights as sending their passwords in clear text back to them when they join is to their safety, but I have never met the owner of this forum so I cannot comment on the reasoning behind such decisions.

I would get the ball rolling, but my scanner driver is not working in Win10, and I am yet to find a nice high-quality scan of any of the MT's on the net.

Kind Regards

Jayson

[JHB]

@John Collins

Since you accused me of a 'dig' at you in your very first reply to me and now again called me names I guess it is time I address your issues.

You have to excuse if I came over as dismissive, but I was cursed with an intolerance of all things opposing the correct way of doing things. As you will notice I was elated that ME showed me a better way to handle the translations and immediately altered course. I have no time for people with agendas that obstruct the way for others. Nor do I have time to read long-winded replies that basically does nothing but to dismiss the subject over and over for no good reason whatsoever.

More to the point, I never meant any animosity towards yourself at the time of the original post. I did not even know who you were that well (never read your books or your blog). After that encounter I read some more posts/comments to try to get to know you and realized that almost everybody in here and other places on the web has at some point or another apologized to you multiple times for bruising your sensitive ego or infringing on your copyright over all things pm. My personal conclusion was that you are not here to help, but to stir the pot and WaltzCee follows suit to sing your praises almost every post you make.

If it is really fatigue as you say then you are welcome to excuse yourself from this endeavor. As you admitted yourself, you are useless at translations (and oh so tired and negative about any form of forward movement). This alone makes me wonder why you posted so many long-winded replies on a subject you know nothing about. Do you simply feel it is your duty to comment on every single post in here?

Be assured that it is not my intention to scorn Mike Senior an any way. in fact his translations are worth more simply because they exist. I would like to also thank you personally for your efforts by publishing his translations. When the actual translations start your books will play a huge role in the process I am sure (of course making sure to pussyfoot around the sensitive subject of copyright). I suggest you post on here for free download, PDF copies of all your books so that they may be used for this purpose.

Kind Regards

Jayson

[JHB]

@justsomeone

I literally have never visited this forum directly before, accept as results in Google where you see one post and I usually closed the page before/after reading. I like to sometimes just type PERPETUAL MOTION into Google just to make sure THEY are still taking notice of me.

Alas... I am starting to realize as I interact with the main players in here that there is a certain bias towards what they think must happen and everything else gets dismissed as if it was a fool thing to suggest in the first place. I can see clearly now that the old guard will not allow the new blood into the playground unless they suffer the same kind of torture for the same amount of time they perceive themselves to have suffered. It boggles the mind.

John Collins seems to have made this place his home away from home (he has even got his own apartment here) and has marked me for eradication. I think that not coming back here just to not read anymore of his long-winded nothings would be a blessing to my soul.

Kind Regards

Jayson

[ovyyus]

I did not even know who you were that well (never read your books or your blog).

John has done more than anyone to collate and present information on Bessler and his wheels. Unfortunately, that seems to also make John a target for keyboard warriors not happy freely taking from his efforts.

Perhaps you haven't heard the latest news... no wheel no expert. That means you don't need to read John's books, or be an experienced translator of Bessler's text, in order to promote some low-bar consensus opinion that has equal standing with expert input. Welcome to the future.

[WaltzCee]

@John Collins

Since you accused me of a 'dig' at you in your very first reply to me and now again called me names I guess it is time I address your issues.

You have to excuse if I came over as dismissive, but I was cursed with an intolerance of all things opposing the correct way of doing things. As you will notice I was elated that ME showed me a better way to handle the translations and immediately altered course. I have no time for people with agendas that obstruct the way for others. Nor do I have time to read long-winded replies that basically does nothing but to dismiss the subject over and over for no good reason whatsoever.

More to the point, I never meant any animosity towards yourself at the time of the original post. I did not even know who you were that well (never read your books or your blog). After that encounter I read some more posts/comments to try to get to know you and realized that almost everybody in here and other places on the web has at some point or another apologized to you multiple times for bruising your sensitive ego or infringing on your copyright over all things pm. My personal conclusion was that you are not here to help, but to stir the pot and WaltzCee follows suit to sing your praises almost every post you make.

If it is really fatigue as you say then you are welcome to excuse yourself from this endeavor. As you admitted yourself, you are useless at translations (and oh so tired and negative about any form of forward movement). This alone makes me wonder why you posted so many long-winded replies on a subject you know nothing about. Do you simply feel it is your duty to comment on every single post in here?

Be assured that it is not my intention to scorn Mike Senior an any way. in fact his translations are worth more simply because they exist. I would like to also thank you personally for your efforts by publishing his translations. When the actual translations start your books will play a huge role in the process I am sure (of course making sure to pussyfoot around the sensitive subject of copyright). I suggest you post on here for free download, PDF copies of all your books so that they may be used for this purpose.

Kind Regards

Jayson

Mr. Collins did not call you a name. He noted your tongue was waspish. Also he
pointed out some signs of sarcasm. Your assertion is not the truth.

No. We really don't. Your intolerance is something you choose, not
something you're cursed with. Also, of all things opposing the correct way of doing
things points to the incredibly elevated opinion you have of yourself. And you want
to accuse others of having a big ego?

Could you cite some examples of this hogwash?

I'd like to suggest you buy the rights to Mr. Collin's work. That way you
could do anything you would like to do with it.


Disclaimer: Walter did not write this. I am his evil twin and I hacked his account. He
should have taken Jayson's advice and changed his password. Stupid dolt will never
learn. Please don't hold Walter responsible.

[eccentrically1]

The translations have been discussed quite thoroughly over the years in my opinion. If some word or phrase had an alternate meaning that was sometimes given its own thread. This forum has been going for about 18 years now. I'm not sure if anything new can be squeezed out of anything Bessler wrote; or anything he drew for that matter.
Even if everyone agreed on a translation, then everyone still has to agree on what he meant. That is even more of a hurdle in my opinion. Just the word "weight" was a subject of debate IIRC.

But if it helps, I'm for it, but I'm not much help there because I don't know any modern German, much less 300 year old German or Latin. I'd think the Latin text he wrote probably has less room for translation error.

[WaltzCee]

. . .
You have to excuse if I came over as dismissive, but I was cursed with an intolerance of all things opposing the correct way of doing things.. . .

Kind Regards

Jayson

And you will have to excuse me but I have a very low threshold for people who want to
misrepresent the way things are in an attempt to get everybody to fall in line. Making
decisions for people and how they should handle their property is incredibly repugnant.
I'm of the opinion that if they do it to others, that'd be inclined to do it to me too. It might
offend some how I handle it, however when it's something face-to-face and toe to toe,
It gets very ugly and very fast. I guess that's why I ran afoul of the law.

Running a Healing Ministry without a license. Exercising demons through the laying on of hands.:-)

Kind regards
Walter

[ME]

I like your last post ME. It shows some vision as to the task at hand without bias. Simple analytics.
You must however remember that I did not mean everyone in here must drop what they are doing, but rather jump in as they can or just those interested can jump in head first.

I like demonstrations of what's been talked about. (That happens not so often, but I like it anyway).
That last post was a demonstration of the posts before.
When you analyse what I wrote before and project it on this very topic then this whole topic itself is about to demonstrate the sliding effect of that "messy non-ideal complexity of opinion".

As I understand:
Twenty years ago JC was like a investigator to seek out the information and like manager when he put all the translations into a book. He feels responsible, and hence the replies.
But the result is just what it is, and I read his statements as that those books are probably not going through a revision cycle again.
So basically you blame him for feeling responsible.
And all you hear are excuses. Also from people who defend JC.
Now your idealistic approach is broken, and all good hopes are melting.
Perhaps better not extrapolate this, but it's hard to avoid that 'sliding-effect'.

ME: "It's not unwillingness, it's a piece of realism and experience why huge projects usually strand..."
In this case, two viewpoints.

Lets say we post a nice big scan of MT1-MT?

ok, let's try that.

as single consecutive posts in a forum section like John Collins has called 'Translations MT'.

Pardon my negativity again. But that will become a total disaster when one still wants to comment on MT001, while schedule demands MT042, while an unaware user barges in all fascinated about MT123 and another likes confirmation that his MT137 implementation is the one and only way to get motion. No joke or negativity, we see this happen often.

At least now if you want to discuss/learn something about a specific MT's language/translation there is a single link to click.

I suggest we use the topics made by Dave Roberts in the community-buzz section. Maybe we can ask Scott to make a sticky topic as an index for the sake of reference and easy look-up. Or maybe he will create a complete MT-subforum, who knows. It first needs to have some substance.

The fact that you cannot update a post after you have created it in this forum is almost as big a violation of user rights ...

Earlier you wrote on forum issues: The fact that this forum is broken is not an excuse. [link]

You don't have to meet Scott to understand that the reason of that lock is the same as why you oppose:
The rights are violated more when an earlier post (as now demonstrated with the link) gets edited when people start to reply negative to such post.
So in this demonstration your personal challenge becomes: If you deem it necessary, will you be in time to edit that linked post in such way that my reply becomes total nonsense or even a lie. Some people do that.

I am starting to realize as I interact with the main players in here that there is a certain bias towards what they think must happen and everything else gets dismissed as if it was a fool thing to suggest in the first place.

Ugh. about 10 posts as a fresh member and already a victim.
Please stop. It's clear that you're frustrated and disappointed when people are not acting conforming your own bias and therefore your are about to cancel your own suggestion.
(ME: "And then you give up. And then you may realize...")

So what are we talking about anyway...??

I now bumbed a topic in the Community-buzz for MT001 (Four years old, and dropped to page 4!!) by uploading a cleaned-up scan which shows a handwriting that I can't read besides a few words perhaps.
Here it is: https://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/view ... 111#170111

Kind regards,
Marchello E.

[justsomeone]

Quote by Jayson:

Having also studied Bessler for a long time

Just curious Jayson, where did you find the information on Bessler that you studied? And your reason for not searching this site? Why wouldn't you visit Besslerwheel.com if you are studying Bessler?

I look forward to your input, but I must say, I am extremely thankful for John's work ( and I mean work ) towards our goal of solving this puzzle. Not only John but Bill, Scott, Stewart and numerous other respected members here. What, other than criticism, are you going to contribute ?

[justsomeone]

Just to add...

If not for John's work, chances are, I would never have heard about Bessler! Thanks again John.

[WaltzCee]

I wonder how Scott got interested in Bessler's Wheels. Someone I knew started talking to
me about perpetual motion then I search the web and found this site.

[John Collins]

Thanks for all your kind words, it is appreciated. I tried to keep my responses mild but you can’t help it sometimes if they come across as harsher than intended. That is the biggest problem when conversations are carried out without the accompaniment of body language, facial expressions and nuances of voice interactions.

JC