just that after reading the relevant post stewart made ,that I agree those are the german equivalent of "and so forth, etc ,et cetera,and the rest ,and other" , wich was visually obvious as well on the drawings when the equivalent were placed next to each other .
as for whether it represented the archaid rc/ct or uvw of german back then I wouldn't know , just happy to know what they mean .
why Bessler over used them ad nausea , I still don't know , the man had a very peculiar habbit of using all sorts of punctuation wording and every pen-to-paper resource in an intriguing manner , what makes this even harder on code searchers is that ,if I remember correct according to research ,the common rules for the use of capitals /punctuation /stuff weren't dictated at that time ..
learning even the smallest of new information on anything related , fascinates me.
jb
Apologia Poetica Translation
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johannesbender
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re: Apologia Poetica Translation
Have a look at the title page of AP (see attachment). That page is from the copy of AP held at the British Library. The scan is black and white and of poor quality, but I've coloured it based on what I saw when I studied the book at the library. (I've not seen any other copy online so far that has this exact title page; other copies have a front page comprised of a summary of Part 1 & 2 and omit the chronogram.) Red indicates the use of red ink during the printing process, and blue indicates pen alternations made after printing (I don't know who made them or when).
Note the underlining of the first word ORFFYREI. That is the correct Latin ending of his name in this instance; it's the genitive case ending meaning "of Orffyre" or "Orffyre's" (i.e. Orffyre's Defensive Poetry or Poetic Apologia). Near the bottom of the page, ORFFYREUM appears in red ink. It's been corrected in pen to read ORFFYREO. The -um ending (ORFFYREUM) is the accusative case but ORFFYREO is the correct ending in this instance; it's the ablative case ending (from/by/with/in/at) and the line in English reads: "By ORFFYRE in haste".
The chronogram is printed in red, but as printed contains a mistake that has been corrected in pen. Here's what was printed:
SeyDIhrDañauChnoChVnVerstänDIg
Adding up the Roman numerals gives 1712 and not 1717. The pen correction changes "auCh" to "aVCh" to give 1717. At the end of part 2 of AP this same line is printed correctly giving 1717 (SeyDIhrDañaVChnoChVnVerstänDIg).
The title of the book is "Orffyre's Defensive Poetry or Poetic Apologia" (NB: an apologia is a defensive writing, not an apology).
Bessler appears to have a fascination with finding chronograms in Bible verses that match a given year. DT was published in 1719 and the title pages don't contain chronograms, however Bessler produced a separate publication in 1719 ([J19] Das 1719. Jahr) which contains 124 Bible verse chronograms for the year 1719, 9 for the year 1519, 24 for the year 1619, 15 for the year 1819, 3 for the year 1919, and 1 for the year 2019! I get the sense he felt there was a relevant message there that applied to the year, although as John says, he could just have been showing off, or perhaps he just liked the challenge.
It was not uncommon for chronograms to be included on the title pages of books that matched the date of publication, so the inclusion of the chronogram on the AP title page to match the date of publication of the book (1717) isn't that strange, particularly in light of Bessler's chronogram obsession. However, we also have to consider that there must be a relevance to the text of the Bible reference in order for Bessler to have selected it from the many that must exist for the year 1717, particularly as he included it in a sentence as follows:
"By ORFFYRE in haste
self made in two parts,
and upon desires great people
communicated at the time,
that he must ask his enemies
SeyDIhrDañaVChnoChVnVerstänDIg
[are you then also yet without understanding]
from Matth. 15 vs. 16"
The full verse 16 in German is: "Und Jesus sprach zu ihnen: Seid ihr denn auch noch unverständig?", so the chronogram is generated from only a part of the verse ("Seid ihr dann auch noch unverständig") and translates as "Are you then also yet without understanding". In order to understand that sentence you have to read the full verse and also the verses that follow:
16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?
17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.
So you can see that this is a perfect reference to include as a message to his enemies on the title page of a book that is written to defend himself from the cruel words and slander they have been speaking and writing about him. You could summarise that message as follows: Do you Christians not understand that by speaking evil and slander about me you are defiling yourselves?
AP contains many comments along those lines, for example at the beginning there is a two page message "to the prejudiced and blasphemous enemy" which contains lines such as:
"What Orffyre will make,
this hitherto you have maliciously disgraced;
on your conscience be it."
"it only brings shame on you."
"Now you might still vaunt your malice! &c.
But how, when on reputation’s line
will your own heart hang?
And those (for whom you set the trap,)
can easily live to see, that you live
caught in your own trap. NB."
At the end of part 1 of AP there are several Bible references, one of which is:
Matthew 7 vs. 12
Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
(i.e. treat others as you would want them to treat you)
Part 2 of AP addresses specifically the attacks made by Wagner, one of Bessler's enemies, and answers point by point various statements/questions posed by Wagner in one of his published documents about Bessler's wheels.
One of the Bible quotes on the first page says:
2 Peter 2 vs. 12,13
12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
Throughout part 2, Bessler warns Wagner of the fate that awaits him if he continues to behave the way he has towards him.
"I pity much the poor wretch,
that he lets himself become so sour,
therewith he foolishly and deludedly
just runs at full speed for hell."
"Fear God, do right and be afraid of nobody;
GOd fight for me and the truth,
with this fight lies hold death."
"By him it is proved true: from hearsay
will many an honest man be hit in the mouth. &c.
If no person does it to Wagner here soon
then might Satan one day do it?"
"One can indeed read no honest nature/essence
from Wagner’s rage and slander;
who just takes a little time
soon sees how the D- -* rides [with] him. &c."
"Isn't Wagner an arch-coward,
the D- -* indeed guides his hand; &c."
* Devil
In chapter 8, Bessler even goes as far as to propose a curse wager with Wagner as follows:
"I want to call together here,
all burning hell-fire curses,
all damnation, moan, woe and pain, &c.
which could ever be conceived of,
let them all combine,
and stand between me and Wagner; NB.
Now if Wagner is not a liar,
and my work is the same as he says:
that therein are put such [things as] wheels,
and clock-weights, gears and springs; &c.
so fall all the curses on me,
that I mentioned previously. NB.
If however Wagner lies,
then the curses will have testified to him. NB.
My dear Wagner, note me here,
I don't lay the curse on you,
will you not do penance, be frightened for yourself? &c.
The curse will surely spread over you. &c.
The covenant between us
rests now before God's throne.
God himself in his holy name
be judge of us both, Amen.
Fare well you poor Wagner-slave,
I know I'm free, confident, just. NB.NB."
At the end of that chapter there is an extra paragraph that is untranslated in my copy of John's book. In it Bessler tells Wagner to read the following Bible references:
Römer 2
Sirach 28
Matthew 5
They all relate to how one should behave towards others, and Bessler ends by saying that Wagner should make room for repentance or he'll remain a rotten tree.
On the penultimate page of part 2 of AP (the page with the wheel image), having concluded his main discussion, Bessler ends with two Bible verse references, and their message is the same as we've seen from the ending Bible references in part 1, which comes as no surprise.
Jacobi III. ℣. 14. 15. 16. [James 3 ℣ 14, 15, 16]
Have you however bitter envy and quarrel
in your hearts, then boast not,
and lie not against the truth.
Because that is not wisdom that comes
from on high, but earthly, human
and devilish.
Because where envy and quarrel is, there is
confusion and nothing but evil business.
Matth. XV ℣. 16. [Matthew 15 ℣ 16]
SeyDIhrDañaVChnoChVnVerstänDIg
[are you then also yet without understanding]
If I reveal inside the art,
then the - -* may master you.
* It makes sense that missing word here is 'Teufel'/'devil'.
Here we see Matthew 15 verse 16 again, or for the first time depending on which copy of the first part of AP we're reading. Again, we could summarise the meaning as follows: Do you Christians not understand that by speaking evil and slander about me you are defiling yourselves?
Following the Matthew Bible verse, Bessler reminds Wagner of the curse wager by saying the devil will be Wagner's master (he'll be enslaved by the devil) when Bessler's wheel is revealed to be genuine.
So everything up to this point makes perfect sense and has a understandable purpose. The only odd thing being the missing word for 'devil' (there are other words replaced by dashes throughout part 2 of AP, 'devil' being just one of them).
The last thing on the page is the strange 'wheel' image. The message "If I reveal inside the art, then the devil may master you." could allow us to think that the image represents something important about his wheel. It's also possible it could be used to decode other information.
There is also another possible reason for its inclusion on this page, and that is to represent Bruder Klaus' 'wheel' and associated meditation prayer cloth.
See this topic: http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4326
and follow-up post: http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... 912#136912
Look at the attached image of the two reduced logographic versions of Bruder Klaus' vision from the pilgrim's tract published around 1488 alongside the 'wheel' image from AP. The AP image only has three of the six arrows, and Bessler could have reproduced the image exactly if he wanted a clear association with Bruder Klaus, however there's enough of a similarity to consider a connection in conjunction with the other Christian messages of how to behave towards one another.
Here's a quote from wikipedia about the meaning of the meditation cloth which the wheel images represent:
"These six medallions contain additional symbols of acts of Christian kindness. This visual interpretation encapsulates the personal piety of rural peasants, many illiterate, for whom salvation history was expressed in these crucial aspects of God's loving relationship with us and the Christian duty to love of neighbor."
Stewart
Note the underlining of the first word ORFFYREI. That is the correct Latin ending of his name in this instance; it's the genitive case ending meaning "of Orffyre" or "Orffyre's" (i.e. Orffyre's Defensive Poetry or Poetic Apologia). Near the bottom of the page, ORFFYREUM appears in red ink. It's been corrected in pen to read ORFFYREO. The -um ending (ORFFYREUM) is the accusative case but ORFFYREO is the correct ending in this instance; it's the ablative case ending (from/by/with/in/at) and the line in English reads: "By ORFFYRE in haste".
The chronogram is printed in red, but as printed contains a mistake that has been corrected in pen. Here's what was printed:
SeyDIhrDañauChnoChVnVerstänDIg
Adding up the Roman numerals gives 1712 and not 1717. The pen correction changes "auCh" to "aVCh" to give 1717. At the end of part 2 of AP this same line is printed correctly giving 1717 (SeyDIhrDañaVChnoChVnVerstänDIg).
The title of the book is "Orffyre's Defensive Poetry or Poetic Apologia" (NB: an apologia is a defensive writing, not an apology).
Bessler appears to have a fascination with finding chronograms in Bible verses that match a given year. DT was published in 1719 and the title pages don't contain chronograms, however Bessler produced a separate publication in 1719 ([J19] Das 1719. Jahr) which contains 124 Bible verse chronograms for the year 1719, 9 for the year 1519, 24 for the year 1619, 15 for the year 1819, 3 for the year 1919, and 1 for the year 2019! I get the sense he felt there was a relevant message there that applied to the year, although as John says, he could just have been showing off, or perhaps he just liked the challenge.
It was not uncommon for chronograms to be included on the title pages of books that matched the date of publication, so the inclusion of the chronogram on the AP title page to match the date of publication of the book (1717) isn't that strange, particularly in light of Bessler's chronogram obsession. However, we also have to consider that there must be a relevance to the text of the Bible reference in order for Bessler to have selected it from the many that must exist for the year 1717, particularly as he included it in a sentence as follows:
"By ORFFYRE in haste
self made in two parts,
and upon desires great people
communicated at the time,
that he must ask his enemies
SeyDIhrDañaVChnoChVnVerstänDIg
[are you then also yet without understanding]
from Matth. 15 vs. 16"
The full verse 16 in German is: "Und Jesus sprach zu ihnen: Seid ihr denn auch noch unverständig?", so the chronogram is generated from only a part of the verse ("Seid ihr dann auch noch unverständig") and translates as "Are you then also yet without understanding". In order to understand that sentence you have to read the full verse and also the verses that follow:
16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?
17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.
So you can see that this is a perfect reference to include as a message to his enemies on the title page of a book that is written to defend himself from the cruel words and slander they have been speaking and writing about him. You could summarise that message as follows: Do you Christians not understand that by speaking evil and slander about me you are defiling yourselves?
AP contains many comments along those lines, for example at the beginning there is a two page message "to the prejudiced and blasphemous enemy" which contains lines such as:
"What Orffyre will make,
this hitherto you have maliciously disgraced;
on your conscience be it."
"it only brings shame on you."
"Now you might still vaunt your malice! &c.
But how, when on reputation’s line
will your own heart hang?
And those (for whom you set the trap,)
can easily live to see, that you live
caught in your own trap. NB."
At the end of part 1 of AP there are several Bible references, one of which is:
Matthew 7 vs. 12
Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
(i.e. treat others as you would want them to treat you)
Part 2 of AP addresses specifically the attacks made by Wagner, one of Bessler's enemies, and answers point by point various statements/questions posed by Wagner in one of his published documents about Bessler's wheels.
One of the Bible quotes on the first page says:
2 Peter 2 vs. 12,13
12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
Throughout part 2, Bessler warns Wagner of the fate that awaits him if he continues to behave the way he has towards him.
"I pity much the poor wretch,
that he lets himself become so sour,
therewith he foolishly and deludedly
just runs at full speed for hell."
"Fear God, do right and be afraid of nobody;
GOd fight for me and the truth,
with this fight lies hold death."
"By him it is proved true: from hearsay
will many an honest man be hit in the mouth. &c.
If no person does it to Wagner here soon
then might Satan one day do it?"
"One can indeed read no honest nature/essence
from Wagner’s rage and slander;
who just takes a little time
soon sees how the D- -* rides [with] him. &c."
"Isn't Wagner an arch-coward,
the D- -* indeed guides his hand; &c."
* Devil
In chapter 8, Bessler even goes as far as to propose a curse wager with Wagner as follows:
"I want to call together here,
all burning hell-fire curses,
all damnation, moan, woe and pain, &c.
which could ever be conceived of,
let them all combine,
and stand between me and Wagner; NB.
Now if Wagner is not a liar,
and my work is the same as he says:
that therein are put such [things as] wheels,
and clock-weights, gears and springs; &c.
so fall all the curses on me,
that I mentioned previously. NB.
If however Wagner lies,
then the curses will have testified to him. NB.
My dear Wagner, note me here,
I don't lay the curse on you,
will you not do penance, be frightened for yourself? &c.
The curse will surely spread over you. &c.
The covenant between us
rests now before God's throne.
God himself in his holy name
be judge of us both, Amen.
Fare well you poor Wagner-slave,
I know I'm free, confident, just. NB.NB."
At the end of that chapter there is an extra paragraph that is untranslated in my copy of John's book. In it Bessler tells Wagner to read the following Bible references:
Römer 2
Sirach 28
Matthew 5
They all relate to how one should behave towards others, and Bessler ends by saying that Wagner should make room for repentance or he'll remain a rotten tree.
On the penultimate page of part 2 of AP (the page with the wheel image), having concluded his main discussion, Bessler ends with two Bible verse references, and their message is the same as we've seen from the ending Bible references in part 1, which comes as no surprise.
Jacobi III. ℣. 14. 15. 16. [James 3 ℣ 14, 15, 16]
Have you however bitter envy and quarrel
in your hearts, then boast not,
and lie not against the truth.
Because that is not wisdom that comes
from on high, but earthly, human
and devilish.
Because where envy and quarrel is, there is
confusion and nothing but evil business.
Matth. XV ℣. 16. [Matthew 15 ℣ 16]
SeyDIhrDañaVChnoChVnVerstänDIg
[are you then also yet without understanding]
If I reveal inside the art,
then the - -* may master you.
* It makes sense that missing word here is 'Teufel'/'devil'.
Here we see Matthew 15 verse 16 again, or for the first time depending on which copy of the first part of AP we're reading. Again, we could summarise the meaning as follows: Do you Christians not understand that by speaking evil and slander about me you are defiling yourselves?
Following the Matthew Bible verse, Bessler reminds Wagner of the curse wager by saying the devil will be Wagner's master (he'll be enslaved by the devil) when Bessler's wheel is revealed to be genuine.
So everything up to this point makes perfect sense and has a understandable purpose. The only odd thing being the missing word for 'devil' (there are other words replaced by dashes throughout part 2 of AP, 'devil' being just one of them).
The last thing on the page is the strange 'wheel' image. The message "If I reveal inside the art, then the devil may master you." could allow us to think that the image represents something important about his wheel. It's also possible it could be used to decode other information.
There is also another possible reason for its inclusion on this page, and that is to represent Bruder Klaus' 'wheel' and associated meditation prayer cloth.
See this topic: http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4326
and follow-up post: http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... 912#136912
Look at the attached image of the two reduced logographic versions of Bruder Klaus' vision from the pilgrim's tract published around 1488 alongside the 'wheel' image from AP. The AP image only has three of the six arrows, and Bessler could have reproduced the image exactly if he wanted a clear association with Bruder Klaus, however there's enough of a similarity to consider a connection in conjunction with the other Christian messages of how to behave towards one another.
Here's a quote from wikipedia about the meaning of the meditation cloth which the wheel images represent:
"These six medallions contain additional symbols of acts of Christian kindness. This visual interpretation encapsulates the personal piety of rural peasants, many illiterate, for whom salvation history was expressed in these crucial aspects of God's loving relationship with us and the Christian duty to love of neighbor."
Stewart
- Attachments
-
- Radskizzen & AP wheel
-
- AP Part 1 title page
Re: re: Apologia Poetica Translation
https://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/view ... 3433#23433
Is this a variable density wheel?fAtnhapy wrote:While I'm waiting on the rails to be machined I started sketching around now here is a prime example of what can happen to your brain if you work on this too long! LOL
fAt
........................¯\_(ツ)_/¯
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ the future is here ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Advocate of God Almighty, maker of heaven and earth and redeemer of my soul.
Walter Clarkson
© 2023 Walter W. Clarkson, LLC
All rights reserved. Do not even quote me w/o my expressed written consent.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ the future is here ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Advocate of God Almighty, maker of heaven and earth and redeemer of my soul.
Walter Clarkson
© 2023 Walter W. Clarkson, LLC
All rights reserved. Do not even quote me w/o my expressed written consent.