Crazy as can be wheel concept

[Zhyyra]

I welcome your constructive disagreement Raj. It tells me that I must look into this further when time permits.
I will be unable to do this for a few days but, I will do my best to get back to it.

Zhy

[raj]

Zhy, this is what you were concerned about...

[Zhyyra]

Raj, I don't know exactly what you are referring to when you say that I was concerned about something. If you think that I was in some way concerned about this design of yours then you are mistaken. This design will not work and my offer to show you this by mathematical calculation still stands. I am away from my home PC and my software which is why that has to wait a couple of days.
Like I said, there is still counter torque on the big wheel that you have not accounted for. Placing another wheel at the periphry of a wheel to perpetuate motion will not work.
I commended you on your persistance, and tirelessness, nothing else.
I will however say this. Your swinging weights are a good idea. I have said the same to gravitationallychallenged. Swinging weights are a good thing and they may help in building a more powerful runner. But the periphery weights will not lift each other no matter how you arrange them or try to hook them up with another wheel at the periphery.

Zhy

[Zhyyra]

Raj, I re-read my first post in this thread. The reason why I said that you may end up completing my build before I do is due to your tirelessness and constant activity. I have no where near as much time on my hands for wheel building as you do. So, if you would like to do a build based on the principals and prime mover that I have described in my posts, then be my guest. As I have stated in my other post, anyone who is someone is free to build a freewheel. If you do, I am not negatively concerned. As far as I am concerned the more people we have building freewheels, the better. The world will then be a better place to live in sooner.

Zhy
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[raj]

Hello Zhy,

This weekend I SOUGHT help from an expert mechanical engineer to evaluate my torque calculations I HAVE done of my pendulum wheel in my eights drawings shown above.

The engineer did the evaluation, and confirmed my torques figures are ALL correct, including my drawing6 which you did disagreed with.

Raj

[agor95]

Thank you for the link Raj. That will hopefully be useful when a build is required.

Hopefully one day there will be a Franchise in the UK [United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland: Status - Independent Maritime Nation State] and founding member of the Commonwealth [1653 as a republic] ;-)

Regards

[Zhyyra]

Hello Raj,

Well done in seeking further assistance! This is what I mean about your persistence.

Zhy

[Zhyyra]

Hello Raj,

I took the time to have another look at your wheel design.

In drawing-01 below you will not that I have scaled everything up in exact proportion to your wheel by a factor of 100. Thus we can assume the real units of millimeters to work with.

Once you lift w2 from the big wheel rim, its weight starts to gradually transfer to the small wheel. The suspension of w2 between the big wheel and the small wheel will result in torques on both wheels. Both torques and their relative distances must be accounted for in any accurate calculation. The total weight of w2 does not transfer immediately and as soon it has been lifted to the small wheel, no, the weight transfers gradually as the weight gradually rises. This means that the torques due to w2 will also vary gradually.

I have replicated your drawing 6 condition in my drawing-06 below. The wheel having turned 56.25 degrees from the start position, and the small wheel having turned through an angle of 4 times as much which is 225 degrees. At this stage there is still positive torque on the big wheel. But, only 23mm of distance in a 1600mm diameter wheel.

I have replicated your drawing 7 in my drawing-07 below. The wheel having turned 67.5 degrees and the small wheel having turned through an angle of 4 times as much which is 270 degrees. At this stage there is negative torque of 40mm on the big wheel.

This means that your wheel will balance at somewhere between your 6th and 7th position.
I have put the wheel at this position of balance in drawing-6p5 below. This position is the position at which your wheel will come to rest. It is after turning through an angle of 60.75 degrees and the small wheel through an angle of 243 degrees. Here you will notice that the clockwise torques equal the anti-clockwise torques.

Zhy

[raj]

Zhy, thanks a lot.

Raj

[raj]

Zhy, forgive me for my physics apprehensions.

I am trying to understand your helpful torque calculation drawings.

To be truthful, it is not what I have learnt, and the engineer I GOT help from agrees with the way I have done my torque calculations, which if they are correct,gives hope to carry on with my Pendulum WHEEL concept.

JUST to ease my misapprehension, kindly look at my new drawing and confirm that the super-imposed weight in blue replacing w2 being pulled up by a longer lever on pivot, at about the 3 o'clock position on another super-imposed wheel in red, same diameter as wheel1, is providing a torque over a distance of 8.0 cm on wheel1 and another 8.0 cm on the super-imposed red wheel.

IF THAT'S correct, it means that the improvised weight in blue is providing torque from a total distance of 16.0 cms from the center line.

PLEASE clarify this for me.

Thanks again.

Raj

[Zhyyra]

Raj, I am about to go away again and our lock-down is lifted tomorrow.

I will be unable to clarify this for you with calculations as I will be very busy with work and with my own projects during the foreseeable future.
I have done what I can for you with what little time I have had for your design and you are free to dispute my calculations.
I regret that I can not continue to debate this with you. I wish I had more time available.

I can only offer you my first thoughts of your superimposed drawing at first glance. The blue weight is in contact with the wheel in your drawing. w2 was not on the wheel in your drawing 6. This is a different scenario. One that I unfortunately do not have the time to delve into.

If you really really want to do a real thorough analysis of the wheels and weights that you design, then you need to start going into calculating the forces due to the weights that are in the rods and/or strings that we use and it can be a very in-depth, tedious and laborious task.

If you think that you have something that may be a PM wheel then I encourage you to do what you often do, and that I commend you for, build it.

All the best to you.
Zhy

[Tarsier79]

Hi Raj

At that exact point in time, the weight exerts 1 x lot of force at 8cm. You could counter this force by adding 1 weight on the opposite side of the same wheel or 1 weight on the same side of the wheel above, but not both.

[raj]

Zhy,

Terribly sorry to have bothered you unduly.
I was just expecting an answer, yes or no, simply.

Raj

[Zhyyra]

Raj,

You have not bothered me unduly.
My answer is simply no, you will not get the equivalent of 16cm of torque from the arrangement.

FWIW what Tarsier says 100% correct.

Zhy

[raj]

It’s almost midnight here in Mauritius.

I just finished my work on my wheel concept, trying to solve my torque calculation which I must admit that Zhy is absolutely right about.

Soon, I am presenting my pendulum wheel concept torque calculation, new set of four drawings to claim the Bessler wheel prize.

Raj