Imagine if Trump declared he invented and displayed a working wheel and requested 10 trillion dollars for his big beautiful marvellous wheel. Around 75 % of the people in the world would declared it a fraud without ever investigating it. Is it really a scientific community problem or a reputation problem?
I can right now vision the liberals running around with their hair on fire all echoing a mantra that serves the situation 8)))) 8P
The concrete arguments that Bessler was a fraud
Moderator: scott
re: The concrete arguments that Bessler was a fraud
What goes around, comes around.
re: The concrete arguments that Bessler was a fraud
After the wheel was shown not to work, Trump would accuse the fake news media of misrepresenting what he meant by 'working'. He would then blame China.daxwc wrote:Imagine if Trump declared he invented and displayed a working wheel...
re: The concrete arguments that Bessler was a fraud
It still wouldn’t have nothing to do with the scientific community directly. In Bessler’s case the scientific community came and tested it while the ravens squawked on the fence in a time when science was unsure of perpetual motion.
Back to the topic at hand. Most of the fraud evidence just comes from the maid who says for two months they turned the wheel by hand day and night. From the accounts of the event how serious did the public take the accusations? We know the scientific community says that it couldn’t be true he faked it that way.
Back to the topic at hand. Most of the fraud evidence just comes from the maid who says for two months they turned the wheel by hand day and night. From the accounts of the event how serious did the public take the accusations? We know the scientific community says that it couldn’t be true he faked it that way.
What goes around, comes around.
re: The concrete arguments that Bessler was a fraud
She also said paraphrased that ALL his public wheels were turned this way. IIRC his first one in Gera was displayed in the public square outdoors. Quiet some parlor trick !
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Robinhood46
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re: The concrete arguments that Bessler was a fraud
Another thought, along these lines, that i find curious.
If the scientific community believe that they are right about Bessler being a cheat, which is understandable, would the method he used to cheat, not be the answer we are looking for, for energy storage.
Many methods of energy storage have a pretty crappy efficiency.
Bessler was able, if we accept he was cheating, to store enough energy in his wheel to rotate for well over a month. We do not have any real indication as to how much longer, the stored energy was able to continue rotating the wheel.
Was Bessler's method of storing energy more effective than compressing air? For example.
Discovering how Bessler cheated could maybe solve two issues.
Allow us to impove our ability to store energy and finally shut up all the stupid people, like myself, who don't believe he was a cheat.
The scientific community brushing this story under the carpet is not very scientific at all, in my opinion.
If the scientific community is happy to behave in this manner, is it not logical that they are not being believed/respected?
If the scientific community believe that they are right about Bessler being a cheat, which is understandable, would the method he used to cheat, not be the answer we are looking for, for energy storage.
Many methods of energy storage have a pretty crappy efficiency.
Bessler was able, if we accept he was cheating, to store enough energy in his wheel to rotate for well over a month. We do not have any real indication as to how much longer, the stored energy was able to continue rotating the wheel.
Was Bessler's method of storing energy more effective than compressing air? For example.
Discovering how Bessler cheated could maybe solve two issues.
Allow us to impove our ability to store energy and finally shut up all the stupid people, like myself, who don't believe he was a cheat.
The scientific community brushing this story under the carpet is not very scientific at all, in my opinion.
If the scientific community is happy to behave in this manner, is it not logical that they are not being believed/respected?
re: The concrete arguments that Bessler was a fraud
It depends Robinhood46. The maid’s allegation is they walked in another wheel in the adjacent room. No storage needed.
What goes around, comes around.
re: The concrete arguments that Bessler was a fraud
Maybe an analysis can be done to prove they could walk at 26 RPM.
What goes around, comes around.
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Robinhood46
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re: The concrete arguments that Bessler was a fraud
This argument only has value if we accept that the know it alls of the time, were so stupîd, they couldn't even find how this was being done.
The question then arises, if we wish to accept that the best of the best were all complete idiots, then why the hell do we even want to entertain their idea that PM was impossible in the first place?
The question then arises, if we wish to accept that the best of the best were all complete idiots, then why the hell do we even want to entertain their idea that PM was impossible in the first place?
Re: re: The concrete arguments that Bessler was a fraud
Robinhood46 wrote:... entertain their idea that PM was impossible in the first place?
The reason too entertain their idea is too prepare a proof.
We are talking about a perception paradigm shift.
All the Best
[MP] Mobiles that perpetuate - external energy allowed
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MrTim
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Re: re: The concrete arguments that Bessler was a fraud
The definition of PM has been changed by them to make PM impossible (by their definition.)Robinhood46 wrote:This argument only has value if we accept that the know it alls of the time, were so stupîd, they couldn't even find how this was being done.
The question then arises, if we wish to accept that the best of the best were all complete idiots, then why the hell do we even want to entertain their idea that PM was impossible in the first place?
The old PM definition (from the Oxford English Dictionary):
"A hypothetical machine, which once being set in motion, should go on forever, * or until stopped by some external force or the wearing out of the machine."
I would add into that " * and continues to do useful work until..."
YMMV ;-)
"....the mechanism is so simple that even a wheel may be too small to contain it...."
"Sometimes the harder you look the better it hides." - Dilbert's garbageman
re: The concrete arguments that Bessler was a fraud
" I would add into that " * and continues to do useful work until..."" and that will be big mistake.
I found better definition in Britannica :
"Perpetual motion, the action of a device that, once set in motion, would continue in motion forever, with no additional energy required to maintain it.
Such devices are impossible on grounds stated by the first and second laws of thermodynamics."
Without the last sentence of course.
I found better definition in Britannica :
"Perpetual motion, the action of a device that, once set in motion, would continue in motion forever, with no additional energy required to maintain it.
Such devices are impossible on grounds stated by the first and second laws of thermodynamics."
Without the last sentence of course.
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MrTim
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re: The concrete arguments that Bessler was a fraud
If it can't perform work, then it's pretty much useless... ;-)
You could spin a disc in deep space, and it would spin 'forever', but it's hardly PM (and you couldn't generate energy or work from it.)
The Drebbel atmospheric clock is the closest to PM, but it only tells time, and is nothing like the Bessler wheel we are trying to find, which, according to contemporary reports, could perform work.
The Bessler wheel, however, does not generate "energy from nothing", but rather converts gravity to useful work. (And what is gravity? We still have no friggin' clue, except that it makes things fall, and nobody to date has discovered "gravity particles", so one could argue that power converted from gravity is indeed "energy from nothing"... ;-)
You could spin a disc in deep space, and it would spin 'forever', but it's hardly PM (and you couldn't generate energy or work from it.)
The Drebbel atmospheric clock is the closest to PM, but it only tells time, and is nothing like the Bessler wheel we are trying to find, which, according to contemporary reports, could perform work.
Sorry, that still follows the "impossible standard to meet" definitions of PM, and falls into the trap set by those who say such PM devices must generate "energy from nothing.""Perpetual motion, the action of a device that, once set in motion, would continue in motion forever, with no additional energy required to maintain it.
The Bessler wheel, however, does not generate "energy from nothing", but rather converts gravity to useful work. (And what is gravity? We still have no friggin' clue, except that it makes things fall, and nobody to date has discovered "gravity particles", so one could argue that power converted from gravity is indeed "energy from nothing"... ;-)
"....the mechanism is so simple that even a wheel may be too small to contain it...."
"Sometimes the harder you look the better it hides." - Dilbert's garbageman
re: The concrete arguments that Bessler was a fraud
PM does not generate energy, this is scientific invention, a sign that scientists don't know what a true PM is.
All one needs to know about gravity is, it makes thing fall, the rest doesn't matter at all
"Sorry, that still follows the "impossible standard to meet" definitions of PM"
No it doesn't
All one needs to know about gravity is, it makes thing fall, the rest doesn't matter at all
"Sorry, that still follows the "impossible standard to meet" definitions of PM"
No it doesn't
re: The concrete arguments that Bessler was a fraud
It doesn't at the moment, because there is no known physical model. If Besslers wheel was not fraud (I would like to believe it wasn't), it did generate energy.PM does not generate energy
From WIKI:
Again, if a "PM" was found, it would violate these laws. This means they would need to be adjusted or added to.Perpetual motion is the motion of bodies that continues forever in an unperturbed system. A perpetual motion machine is a hypothetical machine that can do work infinitely without an external energy source. This kind of machine is impossible, as it would violate the first or second law of thermodynamics
Believing that earth's gravity was the force turning Bessler's wheel has made many believe he was deceiving by fraudulent means of some kind. If his wheel was perfectly balanced in relation to earth's gravity, but relied on centrifugal gravity toward the circumference of the wheel then I totally believe he was totally honest and his wheel actually worked the way he claimed. The problem with so many not being able to discover how it was accomplished, I believe, is that they are hung up on thinking it was powered by earth's gravity. If you want to discover how, start thinking "perfect balance in relation to earth's gravity" and work with rotational forces inter playing with swinging weights in relation with wheel gravity (as opposed to earth's gravity)".