A little history I didn't know about.

[silent]

I found this Wiki page today: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_I ... sse-Kassel

I was surprised to find out, that if this was indeed THE Karl Landgrave, he died 15 years before Bessler did.

It's probably mentioned in the annals, but it's a fact that I didn't know.

Also, Bessler isn't mentioned on that page at all.

silent

[Oystein]

This is known from the JC book etc.

But from the list of family, it would be more interesting to know if the "Frederick" in the letters that asked for the confiscation of Bessler's wheel after his death was "Friedrich (28 April 1676 – 5 April 1751), who succeeded his father as Frederick, the Landgrave of Hesse-Kassel, and became, in 1720, the King of Sweden" or if it was "Frederick II (German: Friedrich II.; 24 January 1712 – 17 August 1786) was King of Prussia from 1740 until his death in 1786." The latter Frederick is well known in Masonic circles to be a great Masonic lodge founder...

I can't recall if this was 100% confirmed in an earlier discussion?

ØR

[silent]

Very interesting that after Karl died Frederick wanted to seize his wheel and evidently they must have? Nobody ended up every copying it thought that we know of. What I get the most upset about is people are so skeptic about the wheel, they don't even begin to try to build it and it's not all that hard to do. I've thought on it for a long time and have clarity like never before. Bessler's clues all fit. I asked my wife what I should do with it and she said, "Build it first and we'll go from there."

As much as I learned to dislike Bessler, admittedly it came from jealousy. He was a pretty smart cookie and it's a shame he was belittled for his invention. This wheel represents a world different than what most people have come to know and really aren't ready to accept. They like lies better than truth.

silent

[Fletcher]

Hi silent .. your wife is very wise ;7) Keeping it on the down-low.

Following along from the context you've given.

Karl didn't buy B's. wheel. For whatever reason. Tho he had opportunity over a long time, or for an installment payment plan etc.

If it was seized (or the parts) it doesn't appear (or an analogue) to have resurfaced at a later date.

Karl said it was very simple to build and easy to understand.

B. said a buyer might want their money back simple.

I think we should all prepare ourselves to be very underwhelmed ;7)

Perhaps underwhelmed enough to have a similar reaction i.e. lack of upside and potential to get excited or motivated about.

Without doubt there is the curiosity factor and challenge of figuring it out. I'd be happy to not be embarrassed in retrospect when it is found-out, and to be part of that process and development thereafter, for starters.

[silent]

Hey Fletcher thanks for your reply.

Those 15 years after Karl died would be interesting because if a working wheel was spied upon by others, why did they never do anything with it? We know steam power was favoured over the weak wheel and maybe that was just the choice of the opulent at the time.

Another neat tip to think about is the fact that about the mechanism accidentally tripping with a slapping noise followed by a spring sound. That spring would have had to hit hard without the weight on it and was probably quite a violent move. The springs in the wheel do have to be pre-loaded manually - a fact one can determine based on the historical record. I do believe each weight set works independently of the other. I believe the trigger mechanism could be solved in several different ways - but one must focus on designing mechanisms that do not create needless back-torque in order to function.

Every single design aspect of this wheel is deliberate and not without it's specific and intended purpose. Most people aren't used to thinking this way, but you have to think in certain ways with the Bessler wheel because there simply is no other machine like it - it's 100% built for its intended purpose.

silent

[John Collins]

After Karl the Landgrave died, Bessler was occasionally visited by one of his sons, Maximilian. Bessler was living in Karlshafen, when he wrote in a letter to “ Baron Schrader von Schliestedt, Karl I's right hand man.”, “ I have had the good luck to finish preparing the model of perpetual motion which was commissioned from England, as demanded by the Senior District Magistrate, von Mannsberg.” April 26th, 1745.

“ Von Mannsberg held the title to the land at Karlshafen, but worked in England as assistant to von Hatorff, and later to Ernst von Steinberg, both men being successively responsible for overseeing George II's German possessions. The new action to secure an Orffyrean wheel may have been initiated by von Mannsberg reading Desagulier's newly published lectures on perpetual motion. He was curator of experiments at the Royal Society, of which von Mannsberg was an FRS, and he published his course of lectures, given years before, in 1745 and the reference to John Rowley and the Orffyrean wheel, may have struck a chord with Orffyreus' landlord.”. From my book on Bessler “Perpetual Motion, An Ancient Mystery Solved?

The Frederick mentioned was king of Prussia (1740–86), Fred the Great! The land on which the windmill was built was on Fred’s land.

I should also add that after he moved to Karlshafen Bessler was constantly hassled, threatened and was subjected to threats of blackmail by members of his wife’s family.
JC

[Oystein]

Thank you so much John. I suspected it was Frederick the great!

In my study of Masonry and Rosicrucianism he appeared and was honored as a founder of a Lodge.

I have been "flirting" with the idea that the secret was kept as a great "upper secret" in some Masonic society... I was looking for a plausible route. So both Mannsberg/Mansberg and Fredrick the Great is now know as Freemasons. And the "confiscation letter/order" from Frederick, after Besslers death, makes a possible connection to the secret.

ØR

[agor95]

... The new action to secure an Orffyrean wheel ... He was curator of experiments at the Royal Society, of which von Mannsberg was an FRS, and he published his course of lectures, ...

How ironic it would be if stored away somewhere is a London Museum or the Royal Society is the components for an Orffyrean wheel. All misclassified as something else like a German church organ.

Just thinking out loud.

[Tarsier79]

So do we know if he definitely built a model that was sent to England?

[Oystein]

As I recall it, the model was built and ready (explained in a letter), but the visit from England (Mansberg/Mannsberg) to pay for it and collect the machine was never done, because of some ongoing war and then Bessler's death.

But a letter has surfaced that clearly states that Frederick The Great sent people to collect the wheel from Bessler's estate, after his death.. Later references to the wheel hasn't been found.

So what did Fredrick do with the wheel? That is a new mystery.. He clearly must have found it, as it is left out of the inventory list.. fascinating..

ØR

[John Collins]

Due to the Jacobite rebellion of 1745. All travel across the channel was halted, so the wheel had to await the return to normality, unfortunately Bessler died before that could happen. Von Mansberg was in London and unable to return to Germany

JC

[silent]

Thank You John Collins et al! Fascinating reading that there existed a wheel ready to go and ready to be sold and yet nobody knows where it went. If it survives, it's tucked away somewhere. The powers that be certainly wouldn't want the knowledge of how it was done to get out. Imagine when science has done a good job brainwashing people that it's impossible only to have someone come forth with a proof-of-concept that proves them wrong - they would be made a laughing stock and people would realize they've been duped.

silent

[agor95]

So Bessler was motivated to build his last wheel. Also motivated to keep it close and hidden.

Regards

[Oystein]

After Karl the Landgrave died, Bessler was occasionally visited by one of his sons, Maximilian. Bessler was living in Karlshafen, when he wrote in a letter to “ Baron Schrader von Schliestedt, Karl I's right hand man.”, “ I have had the good luck to finish preparing the model of perpetual motion which was commissioned from England, as demanded by the Senior District Magistrate, von Mannsberg.” April 26th, 1745.

“ Von Mannsberg held the title to the land at Karlshafen, but worked in England as assistant to von Hatorff, and later to Ernst von Steinberg, both men being successively responsible for overseeing George II's German possessions. The new action to secure an Orffyrean wheel may have been initiated by von Mannsberg reading Desagulier's newly published lectures on perpetual motion. He was curator of experiments at the Royal Society, of which von Mannsberg was an FRS, and he published his course of lectures, given years before, in 1745 and the reference to John Rowley and the Orffyrean wheel, may have struck a chord with Orffyreus' landlord.”. From my book on Bessler “Perpetual Motion, An Ancient Mystery Solved?

The Frederick mentioned was king of Prussia (1740–86), Fred the Great! The land on which the windmill was built was on Fred’s land.

I should also add that after he moved to Karlshafen Bessler was constantly hassled, threatened and was subjected to threats of blackmail by members of his wife’s family.
JC

Thank you again John!
Do you have a sense, feeling or knowledge that Frederick (the Landlord) and Mannsberg had any business/connection?

And is it correct to say that Bessler at the time of death had two houses/properties?

One given to him by Karl, and one he was living in when building the windmill? Or did he at a time sell/move?
And lastly what was the name again of those two last places where he lived..

Sorry for detailed questions.. but I have been "away" for a year or two and this is the last part that has been a little "blurry" but equally more and more interesting!

Best
ØR

[John Collins]

I did have a researcher friend who visited the descendant of von Mansberg a few years ago to ask him if he had any records in existence which would throw a little light in the actions of Anton von Mansberg. Unfortunately my friend was told that the records might exist but they were not collated and not in good condition - so frustrating! There was no further action then although I’m sure that when the solution is found, all records will suddenly become instantly valuable and subjected to intense research.

The windmill was built on land belonging to the local authority at Fürstenberg, and Bessler probably slept there during the week. In 1747, just two years after his death, the famous Fürstenberg porcelain factory was begun in the base of the windmill. He only had the one house in Karlshafen.

PS, I can’t remember a letter coming from Frederick the Great ordering that Bessler’s wheel should be obtained. As far as I’m aware the wheel was described as being found in pieces upon his death.

BTW, Mannsberg was his landlord, not Frederick.

JC