Raw Energy does not make the wheel turn

[Leafy]

Imagine yourself in outer space. I give you all the energy(food) you ever need. You can swing, kick, twist all you like but you( your center of mass) will not be able to move a single inch.

The same thing with gravity wheel, even with somehow the wheel can create energy( I give you a compressed spring), the wheel would not turn unless you convert that energy into gravitational potential energy and use it. That’s why weight need to be raised. Raising weight does not create energy, neither does falling weight.

But WTH. There are only three parts to a wheel - weight gets pull in, weight get push out, weight fall/rise. If non of those can create energy, then how is it possible for the wheel to work.

We can say that at some point or process, the wheel create energy and that energy is converted to GPE to turn the wheel.

[WaltzCee]

Re: Raw Energy does not make the wheel turn

can you define Raw Energy in 15 words or less?

preferably less.

This might help folks understand what you're saying.

[Leafy]

Raw energy here means any form of energy other than gravitaional potential energy. It could be heat, kinetic, nuclear, chemical, aether...

Anyway, let's pin point where the energy possibly comes from in a Bessler's wheel.

First, we must rely on the assumption that "No energy can be gain or lost to a mass that does not interact with other mass". For example, a ball, moving or not, does not gain or lose energy if it is isolated.

Like said, there are three part in a wheel - mass pull in, mass push out, mass rise/fall. The only part where the mass really interact with other mass is when it is pull in or push out. So we can conclude that the energy creation part occur during this process where mass is being pull, push, collide, rub, slide, roll with each other.

[WaltzCee]

First, we must rely on the assumption that "No energy can be gain or lost to a mass that does not interact with other mass". For example, a ball, moving or not, does not gain or lose energy if it is isolated.

I suppose this is true with this caveat, any mass attached/connected to a wheel is not isolated.

You describe an impossible case, Leafy.

[Leafy]

I suppose all boils down to differnce in speed.

If a mass attached/connected to a wheel, it can be counted as part of the wheel and not really a mass by itself.

Anyway, interaction require difference in speed. If two masses with different speed interact, that is called a collision.

We can conclude that energy creation of the Bessler's wheel comes from collision. However, science proved that an isolated collision can never create energy. Isolated collision means there is no other factor involved other than one mass hitting another. So we can conclude that Bessler's collision is non-isolated collision.

[agor95]

I do not know what 'Raw Energy' is?

Is it different to lightly cooked Energy.

Best to define the term or live with 'Energy does not make the wheel turn'.

All the Best

[Georg Künstler]

by Leafy » Tue Nov 02, 2021 5:44 pm

I suppose all boils down to differnce in speed.

If a mass attached/connected to a wheel, it can be counted as part of the wheel and not really a mass by itself.

Anyway, interaction require difference in speed. If two masses with different speed interact, that is called a collision.

We can conclude that energy creation of the Bessler's wheel comes from collision. However, science proved that an isolated collision can never create energy. Isolated collision means there is no other factor involved other than one mass hitting another. So we can conclude that Bessler's collision is non-isolated collision.

In fact that is the case, the difference of speed.
During a collision we splitt the forces in a up an a down force.
A collision is a hard stop, so the acceleration is higher than the acceleration than g.
The system itself is not isolated because it is always under influence of gravity.
The collision is not a direct collision, I have described that many times.
It is an indirect impact.
With an indirect impact, masses can be fired upwards in a flash.

[Leafy]

Raising weight fast require big impact. I'm not sure how fast Bessler raised his weight or is raising weight fast a crucial element in OU.

I do know that Bessler's wheel does not have 360 degrees out of balance although it is said that he can start at any position. Let's say he has 8 weights so 360/8 = 40 degrees per weight. His wheel could have no back torque for 30 degrees and concentrate on a large torque for the last 10 degrees to raise his weight. He could use a smaller back torque for all 40 degrees, but this wheel would have come to speed slowly. With loud noise people heard, his wheel must have big impact.

[Georg Künstler]

by Leafy » Wed Nov 03, 2021 9:39 pm

Raising weight fast require big impact. I'm not sure how fast Bessler raised his weight or is raising weight fast a crucial element in OU.

I do know that Bessler's wheel does not have 360 degrees out of balance although it is said that he can start at any position. Let's say he has 8 weights so 360/8 = 40 degrees per weight. His wheel could have no back torque for 30 degrees and concentrate on a large torque for the last 10 degrees to raise his weight. He could use a smaller back torque for all 40 degrees, but this wheel would have come to speed slowly. With loud noise people heard, his wheel must have big impact.

360/8 = 45 so you have an repeat of the action every 45 degrees.
So you have to look for an action with an impact.
If the impact is beeing made only on one side, the down going side, then the forces and also the energy distibution in the wheel is not symmetrical.
From the original drawing of the wheel you can see that it is constucted in that way that is can handle the impacts.
The next point is to identify where this impact occurs.
We must locate the exact impact point.
An impact point that generates torque.

[Leafy]

Do you think a hammer hit a nail vertically is an OU impact?

[Tarsier79]

Pretty sure Besslers later wheels did not have a loud impact, as he had dampened the impact with felt (from memory). That would suggest the impact was not the cause of OU and probably not the cause of rotation.

[Leafy]

Pretty sure Besslers later wheels did not have a loud impact, as he had dampened the impact with felt (from memory). That would suggest the impact was not the cause of OU and probably not the cause of rotation.

Well, impact could mean two masses with different speed hit each other. Sounds and vibration is a big loss. Dampened impact does not take away the cause of OU.

The cause of rotation comes from raising weight. The impact, if OU, has to send weight higher.

[raj]

Precisely Georg!

THAT'S IT.

[MrTim]

Impacts within a moving wheel cause oscillation. Oscillation causes disruption among all the mechanisms within as the wheel itself oscillates back & forth.

For an example of this, hang a weight on the inside of a wheel (such as a bicycle wheel) and let it swing a little; Watch the wheel rock back & forth. Letting the weight make an impact within the wheel will cause the same effect. The stronger the swing, the more the disruption. Now multiply that disruption by the number of mechanisms you have in your wheel. It's not going to turn...

[thx4]

Now multiply that disruption by the number of mechanisms you have in your wheel. It's not going to turn...

+1