The ONE WORD that could give it ALL AWAY !

[WaltzCee]

A SB's specialness depends on how pigheaded and narrow minded the author is, unable to use any other mechanism to achieve the same goal. Imo, there is very little a SB can do you cannot do with another mechanical arrangement.

Storks bills can accelerate masses at different rates creating that sought after difference of potential (energy) although there are other viable mechanics as you note, Tarsier.

[Sam Peppiatt]

Fletcher,

I think you are just fishing for some thing, that will work. Can you make a fishing pole out of a storks Bill? Maybe Waltzy can come up with one----------------

Sorry Fletch, I couldn't help it ----------------------Sam

[Fletcher]

Actually Sam I started this thread to put in one place all the important stuff B. said, buried in MT in particular. To provide an opportunity for members to RE-focus on what IS important mechanics when they get over-whelmed, dead-ended, rabbit-holed, lost-their-way, lol.

Going fishing has its appeals but won't solve B's. wheel ;7)

[Fletcher]

A SB's specialness depends on how pigheaded and narrow minded the author is, unable to use any other mechanism to achieve the same goal. Imo, there is very little a SB can do you cannot do with another mechanical arrangement.

Storks bills can accelerate masses at different rates creating that sought after difference of potential (energy) although there are other viable mechanics as you note, Tarsier.

Just a little number housekeeping - MT41 gives a directive about SB's as I quoted earlier. That there is something special behind them !

But 41 doesn't seem to fit my number symmetry to the left and right of 25 I gave earlier. However like 38 + 100 leads you to the first number of the Toy's Page (138) so .. 41 + 100 leads you to the last numbered drawing in the Toy's Page (141). Just a small detail.

-----------------------

Yes Walt .. Acceleration is the Root. A special gradient is what we want, imo. Newton deduced in his second Law that Force = Mass x Acceleration .. AND Forces do Work ( f x d ), not accelerations per se. A force pushes or pulls something, giving it KE, or GPE etc, and capacity to do Work. IOW's that "difference of potential" has to have a way to manifest as Work.

At this point I'd like to say that B. did not complete a first wheel format prototype (before the Gera wheel). It was not a runner, maybe not even close. But his experiments were enough to give him confidence to know why everything else had been wrong ! So what did he do ? He went on holiday. Now that's confidence ! Upon return he went to Gera and set about making his first complete wheel and successful runner. No major hiccups, or set-backs, or do-overs. He leased a house in town with large rooms and privacy and just built a working wheel (a runner). Obviously while on holiday he wasn't just fishing and was planning how to turn his prior successful experiments into a wheel format ! Time well spent as it turns out.

[Fletcher]

On with my little crusade .. and today's OCD :7)

It is my contention that MT25 is a major player. I have said that it shares DNA with MT24. They are almost identical except that strangely 24 has 8 sectors and comes before the more simple 25 with 4 sectors version. Here's what B. said about them again.

Acknowledgement to John Collins MT digital : Highlighting and Colouring etc by me for Emphasis :

No. 24 This invention ought not to be scorned. It consists of separate levers with weights. Between the weights are small iron poles with hinges. The poles fall inward when the levers close. There is something one must learn first before one can grasp and correctly understand the good quality of the invention.

No. 25 This is the previous model except for some differences. It is sketched with longer poles. There is something misleading about the diagram, for the poles, when coming out, must not project so far out but must bend somewhat further inwardly. There is more to it than one supposes; one must study the diagram extensively.

Here is the 2007 Hardcopy text of JC's MT, translated by Andrew Witter originally :

No. 24 This invention ought not to be scorned. It consists of special weighted levers and some hinged iron rods that close between the levers and can fold inward. There is, however, more to explain about it before you will grasp and correctly understand its good qualities.

No. 25 This is similar to the previous model except that it is drawn somewhat differently and with longer rods; there is something misleading about the diagram, because the folding rods should not project so far out but must bend further inward. There is more to this than one might think. Mark my words. (B. signs off with the N.B. translated as Mark my Words)

Now, everyone can flip between the two translations and still get the message fairly clearly I should think. Both reinforce the other, because they have the same DNA. Double the message and twice the fun .. Let's move on ..

Meet their cousin .. !

Digital :

No. 26. This is somewhat different from the previous model, but it can be described simply: A are levers which are interrupted at B and equipped with weight-wheels at C. The weight-wheels run in a channel E and are attached to the cords D. As the diagram shows, one side is heavier than the other. Behind this problem one looks for an augmented problem.

2007 Hardcopy :

No. 26. This differs from the previous model, but it too is shown in a simplified way: A are levers, hinged at B and equipped with weight-wheels at C. The latter is run in a channel E and are connected to the cord. As the diagram shows, one side is heavier than the other. There is more to be sought in this problem.


And so I look again at this (even more) simplified model and look for the DNA it shares with 24 and 25. And I see at a glance that it is the folding pivoted rods opened and closed angles which comes thru consistently in all of them, IMO. It is not the rope connections because they are cross-wheel in the earlier and not in this later cousin. And it is not the portrayal of Overbalance shown in the pictures. Because neither 24, 25, or 26 can reset itself and sustain that imbalance condition !

[justsomeone]

Just a few opinions on this thread.

I believe that possibly one word may have given away the secret if it was spoken within a sentence ( or paragraph ) of Bessler describing his wheel and the mechanics thereof. I do not believe one word alone would help much.

I believe that there is definitely something special about the storkbills but also believe it can be accomplished in other ways. I believe his two directional wheels used them but possibly his one directional wheels did not. Sorry, I can not elaborate.

I think mt. 25 is interesting. : the poles must not project so far out " My opinion, if there is something sketched incorrectly, why not just redraw it? I believe that he sketched it like this for a specific reason. Hmmm...

Jmho

[Fletcher]

Turning our attention to the Toy's Page for the moment. I want to reintroduce Hans von Lieven's translation of the Toy's Page from many years ago (discussed a couple of years ago). Hans is a native born German, longtime working as an engineer and living in Sydney, with great English. Fortunately, at the time I copied his original post to a file, because I can't find his original post on the discussion board any longer, for whatever reason.

But first some background ..

Topic : re: The last toy : posted by Stewart 10th Jan 2004 ..

There is a short piece of text at the bottom of the toy page. John (Collins) provided the following translations in a post on the old board:

a) "5. Children's "games" In which yoke one may also find something special whoever knows how to apply (arrange?) them
differently".

b) "5. Children's game in which there is something extraordinary for anyone who knows how to apply the game in a different way."

c) "Fifthly - the children are instrumental, through their play, in causing the force - through some particular impulse - to be transferred from the abandoned foot (fuss) over (to come) to be applied to the other."

John - do you have any other attempts at translating this text since these were posted? Thanks.

All the best
Stewart

John replied, no further translations to offer.

John Collins MT digital : (mine : regarding Numbers 138,139,140,141 collectively known as the Toy's Page)

5. Children's game in which there is something extraordinary for anyone who knows how to apply the game in a different way.

John Collins 2007 MT Hardcopy :

5. Children's game in which there is something extraordinary for anyone who knows how to apply them in a different way.

Not much difference in translations. The first could be read as singular game, the second as plural games. This seems to make sense since there are multiple toys/games on the same page. Either way amongst them is something extraordinary (special) to be found and applied, imo.

Here is Hans' translation. He was always thorough.

Hans von Lieven - Toy page translation:

The inscription is written in old German script later known in slightly modified form as Suetterlin.

It reads: 5 Kinder Spiele in welchem Joch auch was besonderes Arbeit, wer Sie auf andere Weise zu applicieren weiss.

The key to the translation lies in the interpretation of the word Joch, the common meaning is yoke, but in this context it could also mean fulcrum or pivot.

The literal translation is: 5 children’s toys in whose yoke (fulcrum, pivot) something special works (is at work), for whoever knows how to apply it in a different manner.

I will give you now my interpretation of what Bessler is saying here. "There is something special in these 5 toys in the way they move, which can be applied in a different way".

Today we have the benefit of using online translators, which weren't around in those days.

Here is Google Translate of Hans' Suetterlin.

5 children's games in whatever yoke, what special work, who knows how to apply them in a different way.

Here is Deep L Translation of Hans' Suetterlin:

5 Children's games in which yoke also what special work, who knows how to apply them in other ways.


5 Kinder Spiele wer Sie auf andere Weise zu applicieren weiss. .. (yoke and special work removed)

Reverse translating "5 Children's games (yoke and special work removed) who know how to apply them in a different way."

5 Kinderspiele, die es verstehen, sie auf eine andere Art und Weise anzuwenden. (Deep-L)

5 Spiele für Kinder, die sie anders anwenden können.(Google)


My point is that Hans points to the yoke (possibly meaning fulcrum or pivot, in context) "is at work", which tends to get wrapped up and perhaps marginlized in the "something extraordinary" of other translations.

There are certainly plenty of moving pivots and fulcrums at work in the Toy's Page ! And that is the same for 24,25,and 26 IINM.

[Fletcher]

P.S. I forgot to mention why I put an abridged version in my above post i.e. taking out 'yoke' and 'is at work/special work' etc.

Because B. could have easily just said "5 Children's games who know how to apply them in a different way."

I don't know German but I get the feeling the extra detail of the original was included presumably for a very good reason, and not just for grammatical or dialect reasons. I could of course be wrong.

[Tarsier79]

the interesting thing about the SB on the toys page is its termination in an arrow. So without using them in a different way, you push the handles in, pushing the top vertically out. So what is the alternative?

If you combine it with the hammer men, you can either add the handles as even moving weights, one back, one forwards, perhaps using CF to pull out the weights. The other obvious option is to use the men themselves as the operating weights, which makes both weights work in the same direction. Both these options are then hinted at by the two connection drawings on the right.

The fact there are two hammer men possibly suggests either a duplicated mechanism on opposite sides of the wheel in opposite phases, or applied to the above theory that both the methods are used.

...

[Georg Künstler]

Hi Fletcher,
a storkbill can stand in the wheel, but it is instable/unstable.
The storkbill will fall either to the left or to the right creating an impact on the rim.
The intense of the impact/hit is depending on the building size.
The upper part of the storkbill will make a sideways/horizontal move and result in a sudden stop.
The impact takes place in the upper part pf the wheel.
The sudden stop has an higher acceleration than g.
So we use gravity in that way that we accelerate the storkbill, upper part, and then stop it immediately.
We receive this impact only on the downgoing side.
No advantage and an non runner you will say, thats correct.
But i sayed many times that we need a parasitic oscillation and no one agrees to that.
So the storkbill has a special function as a carrier of an additional weight, which is able to move independently.

[agor95]

Hello Georg

If I understand the idea so far. The square collapses to the left of right.

That causes an impact on the cage and only a small amount of force is aligned tangentially. So the increase in rotation is small.

Then the collapsed square's c.o.m. acts as a pendulum and rocks the drum backwards and forwards until it stops.

P.S. Do you have an operational rotation rate in mind?

All the Best

[WaltzCee]

. .. .. .
I think you are flying off topic.

. .. .. .it appears your question was a rues to deflect to your subject area.

All the Best

[Georg Künstler]

by agor95 » Mon Nov 08, 2021 12:31 pm
Then the collapsed square's c.o.m. acts as a pendulum and rocks the drum backwards and forwards until it stops.

The storkbill alone will not work, you need the parasit which is travelling with the storkbill.
The storkbill alone does not rock back and forth, it rotates only in one direction until it stops.

[johannesbender]

https://youtu.be/wcne6KPFHKk
https://youtu.be/dzC2-mJ2_y4

I have my pick of clues , but here is my results for today , my first test with my new "invention", 2*12 grams lifted twice as high by 1*12 grams dropped half the distance (70 mm up ,35 mm down) ,under gravity .

I had some trouble recording this by hand ..
I guess some would know more or less what cluess i value above others , at this time.

[Leafy]

https://youtu.be/wcne6KPFHKk
https://youtu.be/dzC2-mJ2_y4

I have my pick of clues , but here is my results for today , my first test with my new "invention", 2*12 grams lifted twice as high by 1*12 grams dropped half the distance (70 mm up ,35 mm down) ,under gravity .

I had some trouble recording this by hand ..
I guess some would know more or less what cluess i value above others , at this time.

That's quite interesting JB. Does your invention has stored energy? Are you disclosing it? That's the ratio of 1:4 energy gain.