The ONE WORD that could give it ALL AWAY !

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Re: The ONE WORD that could give it ALL AWAY !

Post by johannesbender »

Leafy wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 5:58 pm
johannesbender wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 4:47 pm https://youtu.be/wcne6KPFHKk
https://youtu.be/dzC2-mJ2_y4

I have my pick of clues , but here is my results for today , my first test with my new "invention", 2*12 grams lifted twice as high by 1*12 grams dropped half the distance (70 mm up ,35 mm down) ,under gravity .

I had some trouble recording this by hand ..
I guess some would know more or less what cluess i value above others , at this time.
That's quite interesting JB. Does your invention has stored energy? Are you disclosing it? That's the ratio of 1:4 energy gain.
As of yet i'm not sure about disclosure ,i'm proud of the first results but i am going for 4:1 too or even more, this was just simpler for me at 2:1 because at 4:1 i have a lot of weight moving around , because the wood i used to build everything on was not being bolted down , it was suspended from the top.

This does not function on the basis of a stored energy release , you cant restore an unleased energy source (accordingly to my knowledge or as far as i can imagine at the time) , i was thinking i need to make my dropping weight such that i can hook and unhook it ,that should show there's nothing contributing to the lifting.

It does what it should do accordingly to design at the moment, but i haven't gone to a rotational version yet , currently i have some friction issues which slows down movement , sometimes barely do able , but even if i add more weight to drop (within a limited range), it still ends up being beneficial and does the lift so much faster , the reset idea is worked out already.

Anyway , to further the discussion on topic , i would like to point out , that Bessler did not just say there's something special to the SB , as seen on the toy page and the translations Fletcher has given , it also mentions there is something special there.

Does the special exclusively point to only the SB or to something inclusive in the others too ...
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Re: The ONE WORD that could give it ALL AWAY !

Post by Leafy »

johannesbender wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 6:57 pm

As of yet i'm not sure about disclosure ,i'm proud of the first results but i am going for 4:1 too or even more, this was just simpler for me at 2:1 because at 4:1 i have a lot of weight moving around , because the wood i used to build everything on was not being bolted down , it was suspended from the top.

This does not function on the basis of a stored energy release , you cant restore an unleased energy source (accordingly to my knowledge or as far as i can imagine at the time) , i was thinking i need to make my dropping weight such that i can hook and unhook it ,that should show there's nothing contributing to the lifting.

It does what it should do accordingly to design at the moment, but i haven't gone to a rotational version yet , currently i have some friction issues which slows down movement , sometimes barely do able , but even if i add more weight to drop (within a limited range), it still ends up being beneficial and does the lift so much faster , the reset idea is worked out already.

Anyway , to further the discussion on topic , i would like to point out , that Bessler did not just say there's something special to the SB , as seen on the toy page and the translations Fletcher has given , it also mentions there is something special there.

Does the special exclusively point to only the SB or to something inclusive in the others too ...
Sounds good already. What I meant is you already achieved 4:1.
12 x 35 = input
24 x 70 = output

Keep us updated
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Re: The ONE WORD that could give it ALL AWAY !

Post by johannesbender »

Leafy wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 7:13 pm
johannesbender wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 6:57 pm

As of yet i'm not sure about disclosure ,i'm proud of the first results but i am going for 4:1 too or even more, this was just simpler for me at 2:1 because at 4:1 i have a lot of weight moving around , because the wood i used to build everything on was not being bolted down , it was suspended from the top.

This does not function on the basis of a stored energy release , you cant restore an unleased energy source (accordingly to my knowledge or as far as i can imagine at the time) , i was thinking i need to make my dropping weight such that i can hook and unhook it ,that should show there's nothing contributing to the lifting.

It does what it should do accordingly to design at the moment, but i haven't gone to a rotational version yet , currently i have some friction issues which slows down movement , sometimes barely do able , but even if i add more weight to drop (within a limited range), it still ends up being beneficial and does the lift so much faster , the reset idea is worked out already.

Anyway , to further the discussion on topic , i would like to point out , that Bessler did not just say there's something special to the SB , as seen on the toy page and the translations Fletcher has given , it also mentions there is something special there.

Does the special exclusively point to only the SB or to something inclusive in the others too ...
Sounds good already. What I meant is you already achieved 4:1.
12 x 35 = input
24 x 70 = output

Keep us updated
Even though i smiled and felt good about it when i figured it out and designed it, i'm trying to factually proof to myself (as i was with the first extremely mediocre one i couldn't quite get right) ,i'm not blindly thinking "i knew it had to be do able all this time" ,i have to put the brakes re-evaluate and push forwards .

thanks.
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Re: The ONE WORD that could give it ALL AWAY !

Post by agor95 »

Georg Künstler wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 3:18 pm
by agor95 » Mon Nov 08, 2021 12:31 pm
Then the collapsed square's c.o.m. acts as a pendulum and rocks the drum backwards and forwards until it stops.
The storkbill alone will not work, you need the parasit which is travelling with the storkbill.
The storkbill alone does not rock back and forth, it rotates only in one direction until it stops.
The drum rocks backwards and forwards the collapsed storkbill is just dead weight.

It will be interesting how the 'parasit' puts energy into the system to re-set the device.

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Re: The ONE WORD that could give it ALL AWAY !

Post by Fletcher »

Tarsier79 wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 11:28 am The interesting thing about the SB on the toys page is its termination in an arrow. So without using them in a different way, you push the handles in, pushing the top vertically out. So what is the alternative?

If you combine it with the hammer men, you can either add the handles as even moving weights, one back, one forwards, perhaps using CF to pull out the weights. The other obvious option is to use the men themselves as the operating weights, which makes both weights work in the same direction. Both these options are then hinted at by the two connection drawings on the right.

The fact there are two hammer men possibly suggests either a duplicated mechanism on opposite sides of the wheel in opposite phases, or applied to the above theory that both the methods are used.
The Toy's Page is a doozy alright. It could have been designed as a giant rabbit-hole of endless thoughts and no answers, but I prefer to think it can ultimately be unraveled,,, if we keep level heads. Otherwise there doesn't seem much point in B. leading the reader into an unsolvable and inescapable maze. That would be madness.

I presume that MT was altered after the arrest. It's not clear to me whether while B. was under arrest someone else connected with his arrest had the original MT ? Meaning he was concerned that others had read it ? If they did then he need not have worried, apparently. Or it was hidden away and not discovered but he still got paranoid. Anyways, after he was released he changed MT. Presumably one of those changes was to add the Toy's Page near the end.

The page is numbered 138, 139, 140, 141 (4 numbers). It has been said that perhaps the sum total 141 ties in with Bible verses etc. Probably ! I think perhaps he removed 4 separate more detailed drawings and replaced them with the 1 (of 4 numbers). Curiously he labeled them A, B, C, D, E (5 toys). We already can see that C and D are the same toy and is an 'action' duplication. A and B appear to be 'similar' toys, in different profiles, tho I don't know categorically what toys they are. I'll come back to them shortly.

E is clearly a single toy. It's very large and dominates the left side of the page. It is imo the one on the page most resembling a standard SB. We recognise it immediately. It looks very similar to the standard SB's B. highlights in other MT drawings I have mentioned in this thread. It does have an arrow at the top. So clearly it is representation of a 'Push Toy' ! The Student Forcep, or Lazy Tongs. Not a 'Pull Toy' ! So its purpose imo is to point out the importance of a strategic 'Push' within the wheel. This anecdotally ties in quite well with Wagner's comments that B. said his 'superior force' could be seen by children playing in the lane. And many of us think could well be the popular hoop rolling and tapping (pushing) game. I think E is a strong pointer (excuse the pun).

C and D show two orientations of similar toys. You pull and push the handles in a coordinated way and the pivots move i.e. the angles open and close. This force redirection ultimately leads to the hammermen timed striking the drum or chopping block. The impact and sound being an effect and not a cause (remembering the impact noises B's. wheels were heard to make). However there is a link back to E in that we have a clear push strategy and hammermen hitting/striking something.

A and B are curious all on their own. They are not toys I recognise. Tho I can clearly see a resemblance to a linked chain analogue. Not much to see in B .. except there appears to be 10 alternating pivots (tho B. usually shows pivots with a white dot center). However .. two levers at the top (B between them) show deliberate angles. One to the left 15 degrees off-vertical. The one to the right (opposite direction) 45 degrees off-vertical. That is a degrees ratio of 1 : 3. .. A is strange. It looks like links but has strange protrusions to the left. There are no apparent pivots in the sequence - usually denoted by a white dot center if pivots or fulcrums. But off these we have these stalks with bobs. The closest thing I can remember that looked something like this is in MT15, which I previously have suggested are not weights on poles being lifted, but light weight roller-weights being lifted. These protrusions to me are suggestive of something similar, imo.

Then B. goes and adds the Spinning Top (whipp top ?), center and bottom. And writes his description to the right of that. And he says 5. Children's games/toys etc etc etc. When that makes 6.

So as Oystein has suggested the 5. itself is probably indicative of something in code form. And from his analysis we can count the segments in item A to get 15 (MT15 missing Prime Mover ?) and in Roman Numerals .. I II I II I II I II I II .. or .. X V .. or V X ?!

Add to 5. code and we possibly have a pointer to .... V X V .... as something of significant ideology or symbolism.

AND .. one of the propositions about B's. name change to initials J E E B is the code cipher shift form X V V O. Which may have been an early form of copyright or trademarking exercise on his behalf. N.B. hypothetically rearranging the items by way of cipher substitution to indicate an important mechanical arrangement or part within his wheels ?! A VERY important part !? Not too many ways to rearrange these, if on the right track !
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Re: The ONE WORD that could give it ALL AWAY !

Post by Leafy »

johannesbender wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 7:25 pm

Even though i smiled and felt good about it when i figured it out and designed it, i'm trying to factually proof to myself (as i was with the first extremely mediocre one i couldn't quite get right) ,i'm not blindly thinking "i knew it had to be do able all this time" ,i have to put the brakes re-evaluate and push forwards .

thanks.

So was it static or dynamic?
Was the Law of the lever broken?
Can we celebrate yet?
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Re: The ONE WORD that could give it ALL AWAY !

Post by Tarsier79 »

JB, having not seen the entire mechanism, I imagine there is a pendulum actuator or something similar. Have you confirmed the apparent energy gain is not being stolen from GPE or KE loss, or from an imbalanced lever etc?
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Re: Force Multiplication

Post by WaltzCee »

johannesbender wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 6:57 pm
. .. .. .
It does what it should do accordingly to design at the moment, but i haven't gone to a rotational version yet , currently i have some friction issues which slows down movement , sometimes barely do able , but even if i add more weight to drop (within a limited range), it still ends up being beneficial and does the lift so much faster , the reset idea is worked out already.

. .. .. .
It will be a different kettle of fish when you do.
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Re: The ONE WORD that could give it ALL AWAY !

Post by Fletcher »

johannesbender wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 6:57 pm.. snip .. Anyway , to further the discussion on topic , i would like to point out , that Bessler did not just say there's something special to the SB , as seen on the toy page and the translations Fletcher has given , it also mentions there is something special there.

Does the special exclusively point to only the SB or to something inclusive in the others too ? ...
Hey jb .. good luck with your experiments. Looks encouraging, especially if you haven't one-shot stored and released any energy into the system that needs resetting to go again. And as Tarsier says if there is an overall rise in system GPE, at no other costs, then you may well be onto a winner. I don't think you would be easily fooled.

Anyways, back to your comments above .. B. did say there was something special behind the SB. And the Toy's Page also says there is something extraordinary for anyone who knows how to apply them in a different way. So I would deduce that whatever the advantage is it is associated with a variation of a SB, and also seen in some variation of the Toy's Page toys. That being the one and same mechanical principle to be found.

I would point out that sometimes we get mystified by the Toy's Page. ATEOTD it is a set of standard classical mechanical principles. Which obey Law of Levers. But apparently an extraordinary motion can be had from re-working some aspect of them into something non-classical perhaps. The inference being that that something is perhaps like you are proposing - i.e. iinm, a raised system COM/COG.

.. I take another view, possibly more orthodox (perhaps Ockham's Razor again) .. that B's. wheel gained Momentum (were energized) by taking Momentum from the Earth system, so that COE and Conservation of Momentum Laws still hold at local level. If so, then the mechanics B. says are in the Toy's Page could allow a greater transfer of Momentum from one object to another than classical mechanics allows (I have worked on this hypothesis before in the past). IOW's allowing a near full transfer of Momentum between objects (rather than partial) such that the KE (COE) is NOT conserved and rises for the recipient of the force (to do Work). At the expense of the Earth Momentum, to balance the books.


The point is that a mechanical principle (i.e. an arrangement and motion of standard parts) in the Toy's Page apparently allows for a previously very UN-Natural gain, which ultimately becomes a wheel movement and momentum gain ! .. At least that is what I would probably prefer to believe from the Toy's Page "extraordinary', rather than a direct mechanical manipulation to cause everlasting imbalance from a conservative gravity field. Horses for courses. JMHO's.
Last edited by Fletcher on Tue Nov 09, 2021 4:17 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: The ONE WORD that could give it ALL AWAY !

Post by thx4 »

James Bruton probably doesn't know Bessler and yet in his robot construction that I have been following for some time, here is what he proposes, I recommend you to watch the video in its entirety, a lot to discover about the assembly of SB...
https://youtu.be/DhLgZzd9ZoA

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Re: The ONE WORD that could give it ALL AWAY !

Post by johannesbender »

To answer , concerning GPE and such , the assembly of mechanisms are well balanced , nothing exchanges GPE in an unequal amount (to as much accuracy as i'm comfortable with), except the weights and their leads.

There are no pendulum sort of actions build in ,except for the fact that the base was hanging from a suspension point (not properly held in place) along with the weights which kept swinging about , and as soon as the swinging causes the leads not to be as plum as needed it changes the force such that it does not lift immidiately.

For those who were/are interested ,here is the second test i ran.
I Made some changes , i added tubes to guide the long weight connection leads ,and to prevent swinging motions.
I added hooks to the leads so i may hook and unhook weights.
The friction between the leads and the tubes do add to making it more difficult for 1*12 gram to lift 2*12 gram's completely to full stop, but when i use 2*12 grams to lift 2*12 grams , it's so much faster and easier and overcomes most of the friction in other areas.

I did tests with 1*12 grams vs 2*12 grams , 2*12 grams vs 2*12 grams , and unhooked lifting weights too.
all of the lift vs fall tests were 2:1 in distance , regardless of some being 1:1 in mass.

but i don't want to intrude to much on Fletchers thread.

https://youtu.be/ZVGjRogp_hk
Last edited by johannesbender on Tue Nov 09, 2021 1:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The ONE WORD that could give it ALL AWAY !

Post by Georg Künstler »

by agor95 » Mon Nov 08, 2021 8:29 pm
It will be interesting how the 'parasit' puts energy into the system to re-set the device.
Have a look to the upper part of the storkbill, the storkbill is moving down(during the collapse) and to the left or to the right depending on the turning direction of the wheel.
The impact is taking place at the upper quadrant.
You know from Bessler, that the impact is not driving the wheel.
An impact normally is a waste of energy.

But here the impact is being used to lift and accelerate the mass upwards against gravity.
The trick hereby is that you don't act direct with the mass against the rim.
We must use an indirect impact.
An indirect impact splitts the forces in an up and a down force, the down force is used to turn the wheel, the up force to lift the weight,
So the impact energy is redristibuted.
There is a down force on the storkbill and a up force on the pendulum during the hit of the rim.
I have sketched it up for you.
The suspension point of the pendulums is first accelerated from gravity, then suddenly stopped.
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sideways storkbill move during collapse
sideways storkbill move during collapse
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Re: The ONE WORD that could give it ALL AWAY !

Post by Fletcher »

OK .. let's press on.

It seems that we have no consensus or agreement on what any single word that could give B's. secret away could be ! I say that probability and word counting MT could give us a different context for consideration. And that word could be Storks-Bill, for the reasons I've given.

We nearly all tend to think that it wasn't so much a problematic single (isolated) word that could be his undoing, but a more a situational awareness of guarding against a slip of the tongue in general. IOW's he might potentially be goaded into a string of words in anger or a string of words in casual or careless passing, that in a different context (to someone astute and on the look out), might give his secret away. I bet many a 'friend and acquaintance' bought him a tipple or two lol.

Having said all that it raises the next phase of this thread. Whether an isolated word or a string of words in another context, such potential unplanned and revealing utterances should also be correlated somehow to the witness statements of what was physically observed in his various wheels on show, I should think ! IOW's the witness descriptions should be consistent with whatever that word of phrase might be.

A little discussed witness statement, and little considered I'd wager, is that from Wagner in his First Critique. I'll introduce it now before discussing the more well known ones of others.

Copyright © 2011 John Collins

Wagner’s First Critique 1716

The Now Fully Exposed Perpetual and Intrinsic Motion Machine,

In which it will be shown in detail that the Experiment Performed by Mr. Orffyreus is Worthless and that Neither Perpetual Motion Nor a Constant Superior Force Has Been Demonstrated; At the same time, the Recently Published Merseburg Text is Completely Refuted, and the impossibility of Artificial Mechanical Perpetual Motion is Sufficiently Shown, with an Accompanying Copper Engraving of a Thoroughly Calculated Machine

-Which

is Capable of Rotating Left and Right, as Desired, and Raising a Load of 70 Pounds to a Height Equal to that Achieved at the Test Run and thus Accomplishes Everything that Mr. Orffyreus has Shown-

Produced by Christian Wagner, Mathematician, Leipzig, 1716

Published by Johann Christian Martini, Nicolai Street.

Translated by Andrew Witter; U.S. © Copyright 1997 by Al Bacon, Reprinted by permission of the copyright holder

Appendix and Annotations :

XXIX. On page I, line 12 seq., the defender assures his readers that the principle of the motion depends on no external assistance, driving, etc., but is solely and simply concealed within. I never doubted that the principle is concealed within the wheel, but it is false to say that the motion depends solely on the internally concealed weights, for the impossibility has already been shown sufficiently above. The weights distributed over the circumference of the wheel give it such a powerfully moving force that a load hung from it does not weaken the rotations noticeably. The internal clatter and rattle do not imply a constant alternation of rising and falling; rather the clatter might depend partly on the turning of the weights in the compartments and partly on a completely separate clapping apparatus. Almost no clatter and rattle was to be heard with the Draschwitz wheel; the wheel was made up of 8 spokes and was completely empty near the circumference, as one could see through the various cracks in the casing made of thin splinters (fletcher : planks), but there was not the slightest trace of a rising and falling weight to be heard or seen.

Here Wagner (a first hand witness) says paraphrased that the outer portions of the wheel (Draschwitz) were COMPLETELY EMPTY (nada, zip, zilch, nothing). And it is qualified as there was NO evidence of any rising and falling of weights, either seen OR heard, in that outer sector of the wheel circumference.

Clearly B. would have built his wheels as economically and efficiently as possible. If the outer circumference (lets say outer 1/4) is empty (of rising and falling weights) then it still had a purpose for being there. It either contained something unable to be seen by Wagner as it rotated from his vantage point, or it was indeed COMPLETELY DEVOID of anything except for air ! In which case the wheel dimensional structure was important to its operation, in some way ! It is unlikely imo that B. built his wheels with big empty sections just for giggles.

And the possibility exists that this curious "Open Space" is physically connected to the "Slip-Of-The-Tongue" mechanics he hid so well, IMO.

Enough to think about for today ..
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Re: The ONE WORD that could give it ALL AWAY !

Post by Tarsier79 »

It is clues like that points to vertical distance, like hydrostatic pressure. A pipe could be next to a beam, or concealed within it so it wouldn't be noticed.
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Re: The ONE WORD that could give it ALL AWAY !

Post by Georg Künstler »

by Tarsier79 » Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:33 am

It is clues like that points to vertical distance,
correct, as bigger the wheel, as bigger is the vertical distance.
As you know Bessler has the one and the bi-directional wheel.
The one directional does not make any hitting noises,

Maybe you can find a sentence like this from Bessler.
ich habe nur Mühlenräder gebaut,
i only built mill wheels
Attachments
measuring the offset1
measuring the offset1
measuring the offset1 jpg.jpg (31.79 KiB) Viewed 1087 times
measuring the offset2
measuring the offset2
Best regards

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