The ONE WORD that could give it ALL AWAY !

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Re: The ONE WORD that could give it ALL AWAY !

Post by Fletcher »

Coming to closing matters and some house-keeping.

Wolff in his letter to Schumacher 1722 (JC - DT digital) describes the weights he and others handled - reproduced in part.

- letter from Christian Wolff to Johann Daniel Schumacher, 3rd July, 1722.

"...1. To begin with, it would appear to be beyond doubt that Orffyreus' wheel is not moved by any imaginable external force but rather, its movement is due to the internal weights which are applied in a special manner. My reasons for arriving at this conclusion are:

a) I saw, myself, that the wheel began to rotate with speed and uniformity, without any appreciable external thrust or push until it was slowed from outside. Any attempt at fraud from outside was impossible because the wheel bearings were uncovered on both sides and one could see the axle journals turning in their bearings. Upon request, the wheel was moved from its stand and put on another one.

b) Before translocating the wheel, the Inventor who was performing the test for the officially appointed Commissioners, took out the weights and permitted one of them to be touched, wrapped in a handkerchief. He did not allow the weight to be touched on the end, but lengthwise, it felt cylindrical and not very thick. One could hear the weights landing on the overbalanced side, as though they were swinging, from which one can assume that the overbalancing was caused by their impact. Furthermore there is the testimony of the Landgrave of Hesse-Kassel, who is experienced in evaluating mechanical inventions and had seen the internal mechanism of the wheel and ran it for many weeks in a locked room, keeping the keys himself, having personally locked and sealed the doors and windows with his own seal. He testified both verbally and in an officially printed certificate that the movement of the wheel was caused by nothing more than the weights and that it would run continuously unless the internal structure of the wheel was altered.

2. Since it is impossible, according to mathematical proof, for a machine to run continuously by its own force, some matter from outside must contribute to its motion. That matter can not be perceived by any of the senses but could be made use of by people who know nature better. I suggest, therefore, that the weights on the wheel's periphery are attached by rods in such a way that when at rest on the lighter side of the wheel, they can be lifted, but when they start to fall, after the wheel has turned, they deliver a force on impact, acquired during the fall, onto a piece of wood which is fixed to the periphery. In this way, the wheel is put into rotation by the impact of the weights, which can be heard. But the force which drives the weights, does not come from the machine itself, rather it comes from some fluid, invisible matter by which the movement of the falling weights becomes faster and faster. Orffyreus' whole invention consists of an artful arrangement of weights, in such a way that they are lifted when at rest and acquire force during their fall, and in my opinion it is this that he keeps secret. This is also consistent with what Orffyreus says, that anyone could easily understand his invention, as soon as he is allowed to look into the wheel.

3. It is possible therefore, that when the internal structure of the wheel has been revealed, some mathematicians may decide that it is not a perpetual motion machine as there is an additional force involved, namely the unknown substance which applies continuous pressure to heavy bodies when they fall, and which adds to the force of their impact..."

Wolff says in his letter to Schumacher (of 1722) that he handled the 'weights' (Mencke also corroborates this is his report). He says that Karl "testified both verbally and in an officially printed certificate that the movement of the wheel was caused by nothing more than the weights"

Wolff is the only person I can recall that says Karl testified verbally that the movement of the wheel was caused by nothing more than the weights (no springs etc). I will have to trust that Wolff is entirely accurate there and Karl did verbally testify to that statement. Unless someone else can find other corroborating evidence to back up Wolff ?

So let's look at what Karl officially testified to regarding use of weights .. in JC's DT Pg 195
By The Grace Of God, We, Karl, Landgrave Of
Hessen, Prince Of Hersfeld, Count Of Katzenelnbogen,
Dietz, Ziegenhaven, Nidda And Schaumburg, hereby make
the following testimony and proclamation: -


‘Whereby our Kommerzienrath and loyal subject Doctor Johann
Ernst Elias Orffyreus has most submissively informed us how
he, at our castle Weissenstein, has constructed once more a
new machine from the one he first invented and constructed
some years ago, i.e. in 1712, firstly at Gera in the Voigtland, and
then in 1713, 14 and 15 at Draschwitz and Merseburg in
Saxony, where it was publicly demonstrated. This machine, a
‘Perpetuum Mobile’, he continues, has now been rebuilt in
a room of the aforementioned castle, after the concession
we had granted to him. But he adds how hitherto grave doubts
concerning his device have been expressed, including the
charge leveled against it that it is not the true P.M., namely a
machine which, when once set in motion, continues thus of its
own inner being, without (being driven by) clockwork, weights
that require raising
, or by springs, so long as its materials retain
their integrity, unless it is deliberately interrupted in its persistent
motion. He adds many details about the defamatory remarks
regarding him and his machine which have been widely
disseminated in public journals, and that he has been
challenged in wagers that his machine could not continue in
motion for a period of four weeks.

As a result of this, our aforementioned
Kommerzienrath most humbly approached us to request that we
might most graciously not only inspect his aforesaid invention,
but might also, while the machine was running, arrange that it
should be most carefully protected; in particular that all routes
by which persons might have access to it or tamper with it in any
way, should, in order to pre-empt any further objections or
doubts, be thoroughly sealed up, and, moreover, be put under
guard, with the aim that the device should, after the lapse of a
sufficient period of time, be re-inspected, and, on ensuring
validation of its genuineness, be given, most graciously,
the stamp of an official princely testimonial and Letters
Patent, thereby also making unnecessary the payment of any
duties.

And therefore it has pleased us to accede most graciously to
this request, and, from a love of truth and in order to appreciate
the real nature of this so important device we have spared no
effort or expense to this end.

It is now attested and witnessed in the true words of His
Highness what was indeed discovered to be the truth about the
much-discussed Orffyrean P M. – namely that its motion
depends neither on external force or assistance, nor, especially,
on any internal clockwork device of wheels
and springs. It more
than fulfills the requirements of an almost countless number of
learned prescriptions as to what any credible device laying claim
to Perpetual Motion status must perform. Indeed, this
long-sought and much-desired machine, or so-called Perpetual
Motion
. (T.N. - pure artificiale quoad durantem materiam is
added after P.M. – this Latin phrase is then described a few
lines later, marked *) is a revolving wheel, which is able to run,
by means of its own innate momentum, * for as long as its
innate structure and character is not compromised, and so long
as it does not fly to pieces, smash or break, or become defective
or damaged. But, since the principle is viable, and the material
of which this device is constructed is not subject to defect, lack
of durability or brittleness, there remains no doubt that it could,
and would, if started, continue to rotate indefinitely.

As an emphatic proof of its capabilities this device, though really
little more than a model, has, to our not inconsiderable pleasure,
already passed the long-demanded (page 31) month-long test,
and, what is more, has in effect passed it twice. For, after said
Wheel had been continuously, closely and many times observed
for three whole months by many persons, both local and from
further afield, and of both high and low estate, I caused it, on
12th November last year (1717) to be locked away in a sealed
room. I allowed the Wheel to run for two weeks, and then, on
26th November, I repaired to the place once more, accompanied
by several of my Ministers, and in person opened up the intact
seals, checked everything thoroughly, and with my own hands
brought to rest the Wheel, still revolving with undiminished
energy, without violent shock. Then, with some assistance from
the Master himself, the Inventor, the Wheel was brought (page
32) back into motion once more, and still greater security
precautions were taken to prevent interference. Not only were
all windows locked tight, but also all the doors, including those in
the corridor leading to the room where the Wheel was situated.
This was all done in Our presence and that of Our
accompanying retinue, and guards were posted and seals
applied.

After all this was performed, six whole weeks were allowed to
elapse, during which no one was allowed near the machine.
Then, on the 4th day of January of the Lord’s new year, 1718,
we betook ourselves again to our castle at Weissenstein, where
we not only recognised our impressed seals, noting that they
were completely intact, but also, after the opening up of the
doors and window-shutters had been completed, we
examined the Orffyrean Wheel, still continuing unabated in its
revolutions, from many angles, and noted, both in the room and
outside, that there was not a single trace of anything that could
give rise to the slightest suspicion. And so, notwithstanding the
fact that the inventor freely offered a longer test run, we
considered (especially as the already completed run of eight
weeks had exceeded by a factor of two that which had been
demanded by his adversaries) that this was quite unnecessary.
As far as the much-denied practical applications of the device
are concerned, they revealed themselves firstly, through the
lifting of the chest full of stones, secondly through that of the
solid wooden beams, but thirdly, and particularly,
through the fairly large Archimedes Screw – and our hopes on
this score were wonderfully exceeded. Indeed, we cannot doubt
that if the device, after suitable negotiations as to better siting
than in a small room in my castle, and with better ancillary
support and fewer associated problems than have prevailed
here, can be constructed on a larger scale, thus producing more
power, then the result will be (especially if several such
machines can be combined in tandem) a resource of great value
in such fields as horology, milling, hydraulics and mining.
In order that all these things might be confirmed all the more
strongly, we have, yielding to the inventor’s most
humbly expressed request, not only appended to this
testimonial our own signature, adding to it the great Seal of our
Dynasty, after the most mature consideration, but further, we
strongly exhort all people, of whatever class or rank they may be
(and in the case of our own subjects we not only exhort but
command) that our aforementioned Kommerzienrat Orffyreus,
who, by virtue of his service with us enjoys our protection,
should on account of this, his most wonderful, but as yet not
widely appreciated invention, not be burdened by unjust
accusations, but rather should, when he requests it or is
otherwise seen to require it, enjoy all the assistance, protection
and promotional goodwill that can be offered him.
The which we are at any time most graciously pleased to repeat
on request, even in legally binding terms, to any
person, depending upon his rank; to our own subjects this shall
serve as a solemn proclamation.

Kassel, 27th May, 1718 KARL
Comment :

The Karl Attestation above is not as succinct as Wolff's assertion in his letter. Paraphrasing .. B. says not clockwork, weights do not require raising, or springs. Karl says not clockwork, or springs, and does not mention the raising of weights per se.

It seems likely that 'weights' were an integral part of the public display wheels !

What is interesting is reading the Latin of the Karl Certificate (Pg 37 digital). The font is changed to read Perpetuum Mobile pure artificiale ... quod durantem materiam &c,

Mike Senior translates as "own innate momentum". Literally it translates imo as Perpetual Mobile pure artificial ... as long as the materials endure.

IOW's a .. pure artificial Perpetual Mobile ... as long as the materials endure.

When read in conjunction with the Latin below in the text I can see how MS arrives at "own innate momentum" for pure artificial PM.

There is no direct mention of weights per se, as Wolff alludes to in this Certificate, afaik.

For me, I think it is safe to say that formal 'weight's were part of B's. display wheels, and no springs per se were present.

For me, I do not think it is safe to presume that the sounds heard were impacting sounds of those same 'weights'.


End of Rant !
Last edited by Fletcher on Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The ONE WORD that could give it ALL AWAY !

Post by agor95 »

Well it looks like the number of weights removed and replaced has not been documented.

Observation without documentation how eminent of them.
[MP] Mobiles that perpetuate - external energy allowed
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Re: The ONE WORD that could give it ALL AWAY !

Post by John Collins »

Annoying as it is, Bessler worked from the other side of the wheel to protect the interior of the wheel from the view of the spectators, and only produced “several” weights, so he might only have shown some of them. So even if Wolff had counted how many he was aware of, there may have been many more out of sight, that Bessler needed to remove to permit the translocation of the wheel to the second set of bearings. So all we know is he showed several weights.

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Re: The ONE WORD that could give it ALL AWAY !

Post by johannesbender »

depends neither on external force or assistance, nor, especially,
on any internal clockwork device of wheels and springs
so any coupled rotational wheel/gear trains , winding and unwinding weights and springs , and air etc, ignore all these things in MT.
Its all relative.
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Πίτσα! Πίτσα!

Post by WaltzCee »

I don't think ignore them johannesbender. Maybe figure out how to connect those pieces differently. Ultimately everyone is designing with the same parts.
WaltzCee wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:37 pm Has anyone mentioned the noise on the downside might have been caused by a rocker arm redirecting a downward force up a 100% (or so) grade?

some redirection?
it's been mentioned yet misdirection is a strong possibility.
What is interesting is reading the Latin of the Karl Certificate (Pg 37 digital). The font is changed to read Perpetuum Mobile pure artificiale ... quod durantem materiam &c,
Perpetuum Mobile pure artificiale sounds like genuine immitation nagahid.

An intriguing thing about Πίτσα is if you double the circumference you create 4 times the surface area to plant even more delicious peperonis and some smoked Italian sausages and there's a long list. Heck I'd be willing to try some roo too! Fryders? I'd have to pair that with JD.
Last edited by WaltzCee on Wed Dec 08, 2021 2:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The ONE WORD that could give it ALL AWAY !

Post by Georg Künstler »

by johannesbender » Wed Dec 08, 2021 11:20 am

depends neither on external force or assistance, nor, especially,
on any internal clockwork device of wheels and springs
so any coupled rotational wheel/gear trains , winding and unwinding weights and springs , and air etc, ignore all these things in MT.[/quote]

exact, only moving weights.
The weights act in pairs, so they cannot be 5 or seven.
fletcher wrote
For me, I think it is safe to say that formal 'weight's were part of B's. display wheels, and no springs per se were present.

For me, I do not think it is safe to presume that the sounds heard were impacting sounds of those same 'weights'.
For me it is safe that there are no springs included.
For me it is also safe that not the weights are creating the impact sound.
The impact is coming from the falling structure.

from the reading above:
3. It is possible therefore, that when the internal structure of the wheel has been revealed, some mathematicians may decide that it is not a perpetual motion machine as there is an additional force involved, namely the unknown substance which applies continuous pressure to heavy bodies when they fall, and which adds to the force of their impact..."
The wheel itself is not a perpetual motion machine because it will not work when you switch of the gravity force.
The impact splits forces into an up and an down force under specific conditions. The correct angle

The cylinder shaped weight can either roll in a structure, or they can hang in a structure.
If they are hanging we have 2 possibilities, they can hang in that way that they can rotate, or they are hanging in a kind of a slope.

Hanging in a slope has the advantage that you can remove them without any tools.
Also this has the advantage that you can add some gramms here and there for the experiments.
Best regards

Georg
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Re: The ONE WORD that could give it ALL AWAY !

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This is what I believe; Fletcher, when you ridicule John Collins and his book, ALL of your words become a little tarnished---------------------Sam
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Re: Πίτσα! Πίτσα!

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WaltzCee wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 1:46 pm I don't think ignore them johannesbender. Maybe figure out how to connect those pieces differently. Ultimately everyone is designing with the same parts.
yes , it sounds like karl and bessler is saying , there is nothing that depends on a "one shot" or that runs down for a limited duration ,
like clocks being powered from unwinding weights and springs which needs an outside source again,
for example unwinding gear/wheel trains with weight power being limited by duration of the length of the unwinding cord ; until manually rewound is required from an outside source .

That's what makes sense to me , any automata requiring an outside source to replenish the energy -which is limited for only a certain time period, is not in the design.
it's been mentioned yet misdirection is a strong possibility.
true.
Last edited by johannesbender on Wed Dec 08, 2021 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Its all relative.
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Re: The ONE WORD that could give it ALL AWAY !

Post by Leafy »

If I remember correctly B said science got it wrong over and over again. So it must be something we see everyday.
I would trade everything to see her again, even a perpetual motion machine…
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Re: The ONE WORD that could give it ALL AWAY !

Post by Fletcher »

Leafy wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 4:03 pmIf I remember correctly B said science got it wrong over and over again. So it must be something we see everyday.
I don't remember B. saying those exact words Leafy, but I think your meaning is clear.

B. had a breakthrough moment. In AP he says .. "I saw that I had finally made the right choice, and why the earlier ones had been wrong."

IMO he had an epiphany moment (about his PM motive force), and crossed the Rubicon, with no going back.

Karl said it was easy to understand, and simple to build. B. said it was simple and that he was worried a buyer could want their money back.

If Karl can say to his Ministers (and Fischer etc) that it is easy to understand and simple to build then that suggests a certain level of comfort, familiarity with the mechanics involved. Even if we've never seen that exact same combination and relationships before, for that purpose. But apparently we can easily infer it, once seen.

So yes, imo, everyday common-garden items - no surprises - seen every day - but the special combination the likes of before never seen (or considered until him). imo.
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Re: The ONE WORD that could give it ALL AWAY !

Post by Fletcher »

Reading thru the reply's since my posts yesterday a thought struck me. I should have given an anecdotal example altho I took it for granted ?

I ended yesterday saying ..
fletcher wrote:For me, I think it is safe to say that formal 'weight's were part of B's. display wheels, and no springs per se were present.

For me, I do not think it is safe to presume that the sounds heard were impacting sounds of those same 'weights'.

Exclusion Principle :

Bessler said he could build wheels with NO 'weights'.

If contact sounds on the descending side happen for ALL his runners, and some don't have ANY 'weights', then those sounds heard are NOT from 'weights' !
Last edited by Fletcher on Wed Dec 08, 2021 8:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The ONE WORD that could give it ALL AWAY !

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Fletcher wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 8:24 pm

Bessler said he could build wheels with NO 'weights'.

No weights sounds like a perfectly balanced wheel. How does that works?
I would trade everything to see her again, even a perpetual motion machine…
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Re: The ONE WORD that could give it ALL AWAY !

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Dear Sam, I feel that you may have misunderstood fletch’s posts. He wasn’t ridiculing my books. I’m sure he would agree with me.

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Re: The ONE WORD that could give it ALL AWAY !

Post by Fletcher »

Read the context of what B. says here Leafy ..

viewtopic.php?p=184377#p184377

XXIX (b) in blue, near the bottom, for the exact words B. uses to tell us he has machines without weights.

" Herr Wagner says that my machine does not, under any
circumstances, derive its motive force from the noisy weights ...

... The clattering noise you refer to is, I assure you, a phenomenon
caused directly by the real motive power of the machine, and
nothing else ...

... The former (Draschwitz) one turned in only one direction, but the
latter (Merseburg ) one turned, as everyone could see, both ways. The
former was provided with felt coverings, but the latter was as bare as
a bald head ... continued ...

... I have many other machines of various types - some, for instance,
with weights, others without ... "

It's a mine field Leafy, for sure. B. imo lays traps and there are many twists and turns in the road to navigate. ATEOTD you have to use your best judgement and hope B. is telling the truth the majority of the time. I think he does. As do the likes of Wagner, Wolff and Karl etc in good faith.

B. admits that the wheel in question does have 'weights'. What I have been calling 'formal' weights i.e. the cylindrical, not very thick (e.g. like a coin or short can shape), about 4 lbs, that Wolff describes of the Merseburg wheel.

A perfectly balanced wheel is a flywheel with no ability to change its MOI. It will slow down and stop after an initial impetus motion given to it.

Anecdotally, from what B. has said elsewhere, something must move (change radius) inside a 'runner' (presumably changing its MOI) and to create the self-moving motive force. But apparently it need not be of a 'formal' weights nature, and sufficient mass can be embedded into a suitably robust structure to do a similar job to formalized stand-alone 'weights' (albeit perhaps less efficiently because he does also use formal weights for the display wheels). That structure imo morphs shape, presumably changing its CoM MOI, and like the formal weights the motive force is derived from its manipulation from gravity effects, and harnessing of same, IMO. i.e. "others without" (weights).

ETA : Absolutely JC !
Last edited by Fletcher on Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The ONE WORD that could give it ALL AWAY !

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