The ONE WORD that could give it ALL AWAY !

[eccentrically1]

Karl probably wasn’t brushed off as a nut job. I assume you’re talking about medical professionals advice about the pandemic.
I think it was something else that was wrong that we’ll never know about.
It’s Strange that they didn’t use Wolff’s escrow solution to sell it. Don’t you think? FREE POWER! But no takers.
Something ain’t right.

[Leafy]

I think Bessler never sincered about selling his secret. He felt too special. If the secret gets out, he just a guy with a chunk of money. He rather be a teacher, or cult leader. lol

[John Collins]

I may have these calculations wrong so correct me if this is wrong. One thaler weighed variously between a half and one ounce. 100,000 thalers equals somewhere between, 50,000 and 100,000 ounces. Total weight of between 50,000 and 100,000 thalers equalled between roughly one and a half and just over three tons! I guess Bessler was talking metaphorically when he described the payment as a bag of money. How was he going to protect his money? Thank you Sam for describing the payment as 100,000 ounces of silver, I never thought of it in that way.

JC

[Robinhood46]

"It’s Strange that they didn’t use Wolff’s escrow solution to sell it. Don’t you think? FREE POWER! But no takers.
Something ain’t right"

I think we need to try and look at the situation from their perspective, and avoid using ours.
FREE POWER may well be a big deal now, but i don't think it would have been such a big deal then. BIG POWER was far more interesting. Without the knowledge we have now, regarding the consequences of our energy consumption, they would have had no reason to enter this factor into the equation, or their thought process.
With regard "Wolf's escrow solution", I'm pretty convinced that nobody, who had the money, or the power to influence those with the money, was willing to take the risk of becoming the laughing stock of the influential world.
You and i don't have anything to lose, with being considered flat earthers, who are so bloody stupid, that we actually think Bessler's wheel might not be a hoax.

[John Collins]

Agreed! JC

[Sam Peppiatt]

To @,
Yes times were much different. They weren't as dependent on power as much as we are now and, if Bessler did demand the bigger Thalers, which he might have, it would have been about 7 wagon loads!! It would have been a lot of money, even for a king. People that needed it, didn't have it, and a king didn't really need it. Unless he was a visionary-----------------------------Sam

PS Hi John Collins! Yes, it does change the slant of it, if that's the right word.

[eccentrically1]

I think Bessler never sincered about selling his secret. He felt too special. If the secret gets out, he just a guy with a chunk of money. He rather be a teacher, or cult leader. lol

That would fit his personality traits. I think it's apparent he could have taken way less money and still been fabulously wealthy, as well as famous, there's more to it than greed.

I may have these calculations wrong so correct me if this is wrong. One thaler weighed variously between a half and one ounce. 100,000 thalers equals somewhere between, 50,000 and 100,000 ounces. Total weight of between 50,000 and 100,000 thalers equalled between roughly one and a half and just over three tons! I guess Bessler was talking metaphorically when he described the payment as a bag of money. How was he going to protect his money? Thank you Sam for describing the payment as 100,000 ounces of silver, I never thought of it in that way.

JC

That looks right to me. There were ways of payment other than tons of coins, I'm sure. He probably meant the equivalent like you allude.

"It’s Strange that they didn’t use Wolff’s escrow solution to sell it. Don’t you think? FREE POWER! But no takers.
Something ain’t right"

I think we need to try and look at the situation from their perspective, and avoid using ours.
FREE POWER may well be a big deal now, but i don't think it would have been such a big deal then. BIG POWER was far more interesting. Without the knowledge we have now, regarding the consequences of our energy consumption, they would have had no reason to enter this factor into the equation, or their thought process.
With regard "Wolf's escrow solution", I'm pretty convinced that nobody, who had the money, or the power to influence those with the money, was willing to take the risk of becoming the laughing stock of the influential world.
You and i don't have anything to lose, with being considered flat earthers, who are so bloody stupid, that we actually think Bessler's wheel might not be a hoax.

I think free power would have been just as big a deal then, you're not giving them enough credit for their business savvy. No labor costs is a universal concept.
The risks were already taken when Karl supported and others endorsed him. No one wanted to be associated with the laughing stock would be one explanation, but if the money was held in escrow, then the buyers would be protected. Hence the solution.

To @,
Yes times were much different. They weren't as dependent on power as much as we are now and, if Bessler did demand the bigger Thalers, which he might have, it would have been about 7 wagon loads!! It would have been a lot of money, even for a king. People that needed it, didn't have it, and a king didn't really need it. Unless he was a visionary-----------------------------Sam

PS Hi John Collins! Yes, it does change the slant of it, if that's the right word.

Society has always depended on power, why would anyone have bothered to invent any engine if it wasn't in need or demand?

[Sam Peppiatt]

eccentrically1,

Let me take another stab at it. Sure the people / workers would be desperate for more free power but, a king wasn't. All he had to do, to get more of anything was to whip the, SOB, (worker), or his horse a little fucking harder and, he didn't have to kick out one dollar to do it. use your common sense, OK?
'
I think you are trying to suggest, in a round about way, that Bessler's wheel is inadequate. But, why, why do you think that------------------------Sam

[Fletcher]

I think in many ways it was a bit of a perfect storm.

Low power density, a lot of money asked, burgeoning more powerful competing technology with potentially low costs of running and maintenance, if used for mass industrialization, with scale.

Then we have what I consider is one of the main reasons for lack of uptake. Political. Karl was a political figure. Some would trust his endorsement and know he had seen the workings of the runner. Others further from his field of influence would wonder if there was some unknown political agenda. Since Karl was a benefactor of Bessler, who had paid him 4,000 Thalers to look inside. If he had been duped he might be in league with B. to recover his losses at the expensive of some mark. IOW's Karl and B. were not arms-length by that stage.

The escrow would have worked as protection for a purchaser.

** I think that had B. let someone else view the inside workings of his runner, like a Wagner, or Wolff, or s'Gravesande etc, someone with a reputation and not considered a friend, then it would have been arms-length and a second attestment backing up Karls. Had he had two or more people of power, education, reputation, and influence vouch for him with first-hand knowledge he would have got past any potential personal or political roadblocks and probably sold it.

B. was a complex and intelligent man, with perhaps unusual paranoia's and mistrusts, and he could have worked out a plan with advisors and confidants. So I tend to put it on him ateotd.

[eccentrically1]

eccentrically1,

Let me take another stab at it. Sure the people / workers would be desperate for more free power but, a king wasn't. All he had to do, to get more of anything was to whip the, SOB, (worker), or his horse a little fucking harder and, he didn't have to kick out one dollar to do it. use your common sense, OK?
'
I think you are trying to suggest, in a round about way, that Bessler's wheel is inadequate. But, why, why do you think that------------------------Sam

There is still a limit to horse whipped power (besides shortening the life of your labor). And, it wasn't free. Workers and horses had to be fed and housed.
I don't have to suggest it was inadequate, that's also apparent.

I think in many ways it was a bit of a perfect storm.

Why would they testify all those things in Karl's document when they knew all of the "associated problems":

"Indeed, we cannot doubt
that if the device, after suitable negotiations as to better siting
than in a small room in my castle, and with better ancillary
support and fewer associated problems than have prevailed
here, can be constructed on a larger scale, thus producing more
power, then the result will be (especially if several such
machines can be combined in tandem) a resource of great value
in such fields as horology, milling, hydraulics and mining."

Do you think they were that naive? He thought to include "we need to emphasize it can be scaled up", but the thought it was too much money never crossed anyone's mind?
The duped/ in league / political argument doesn't hold water especially after Wolff's suggestion to hold the payment in escrow.
There are a lot of ifs that would have changed the end. If someone else had viewed it, as you say.
He did work out a plan with his advisors and confidantes, though. It wasn't all on him that their plan didn't work.
Something ain't right beyond the examples given. Something got lost in translation, or in the mist of time.
Does anyone else see that?

[Sam Peppiatt]

Like the old black woman said; "Two tears in a bucket, mother fuck it!"

[Fletcher]

ECC1 .. aren't you speculating on some nefarious reason for it not being sold ?

And pointing the finger at the meaning of "fewer associated problems" without knowing what they were ? I understand a "better siting than a small room in the castle" as in the work place, and "better ancillary support" as repairs and maintenance people and programs etc to keep it working, but I have no idea what the context of the "fewer associated problems than have prevailed here" are ?

What do you think were those problems that prevailed, given that the wheel did turn for 8 weeks in a locked and guarded room, and didn't break down. I would have thought no problems prevailed because the test was a success ? So maybe it means something else to those that signed the attestation - if so, what ?

Why would they testify all those things in Karl's document when they knew all of the "associated problems":

"Indeed, we cannot doubt that if the device, after suitable negotiations
as to better siting than in a small room in my castle, and with better ancillary
support and fewer associated problems than have prevailed here,

[eccentrically1]

Nice one Sam.

I’m speculating that not being sold is more than just ‘it was too expensive’ or it wasn’t competitive with steam, not necessarily nefarious. That’s what’s missing in the narrative. Something’s not right.
In his testimony, Karl refers to the “long-sought and much-desired machine’, perpetual motion. Come on, no body wants a piece of that? Something people have been looking for for thousands of years?
I don’t know what the problems were other than the castle room wasn’t big enough to demonstrate a wheel as powerful as steam.

“fewer associated problems than have prevailed
here, can be constructed on a larger scale, thus producing more
power, then the result will be (especially if several such
machines can be combined in tandem) a resource of great value
in such fields as horology, milling, hydraulics and mining.”

[Leafy]

I don’t think people back then is any less intelligent than now. To pay that large amount of money they would have to sign contract that Bessler could never discuss perpetual motion again. They also have back engineer problem. The point is why put out a large sum of money to satisfy curiosity ( because you won’t get your money back by producing and sell energy while keeping it a secret).

[eccentrically1]

Right, so an intelligent buyer would have secured the patent. It wouldn’t be necessary to keep it secret. Anyone interested in a pm wheel would have to pay for a license to build one. Unlicensed versions would be destroyed.