The ONE WORD that could give it ALL AWAY !

[Leafy]

Right, so an intelligent buyer would have secured the patent. It wouldn’t be necessary to keep it secret. Anyone interested in a pm wheel would have to pay for a license to build one. Unlicensed versions would be destroyed.

It's not that simple. People back then are self sufficient. They would make a rough wheel for their own use. It's not comercialized so I don't think it's illegal. Even if you smash wheels in the city, rural area is even harder to control. The wheel will spread to other country and everyone build one for their own use. You can't contain that.

[Tarsier79]

.............Anyone interested in a pm wheel would have to pay for a license to build one. Unlicensed versions would be destroyed.

Here is an interesting example from China:
Original (In Australia):
https://www.garrettaustralia.com.au/pro-pointer-ii
$239.00

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/12492336125 ... Sw7INhUs9a
$50.00 (in inferior knock-off)

You could potentially spend millions of dollars trying to sue for copyright without any success or monetary gain.

[John Collins]

As I said earlier, the main reason the sale was not completed was down to Bessler’s demands that he be allowed to leave as soon as he had been paid. He couldn’t afford to let anyone see the inside of his wheel before he got his payment, because they could say it wasn’t worth the money and leave, knowing exactly how it worked. The buyer did not like like those terms either because they didn’t trust him not to chest them. This whole problem should have been avoided because, on Leibniz’s advice, Bessler had allowed a very senior and trusted member of the aristocracy to view and approve and verify the internal design as genuine. But even with all the tests and Karl’s validation, people were still suspicious, and were unwilling to pay up front. The escrow arrangement failed because of the volatile and paranoid nature of Wolff’s employer. Read what I wrote about him in my biography of Bessler

JC

[Fletcher]

The psychology of B's. position of 'all or nothing' has always been 'interesting' to me. He didn't offer a deposit and installment plan. He was worried that a buyer would want their money back. He didn't offer an escrow arrangement until it was suggested by someone else. He didn't let Karl see the inside workings until suggested by someone else. Then the curious situation of Karl not purchasing the technology for himself, for whatever reason that has been discussed much before. Altho Karl did pay him 4,000 Thalers and sponsored him. Karl also said things about the wheel i.e. easy to understand and simple to build, altho never revealing how it worked.

It is hard to imagine a situation where a buyer is so hesitant, or disappointed, or angry with a real PM machine he just bought, that has been sought thru the ages, that his pride is hurt and he wants to walk away and take back his payment. It would be extremely bad form to renege or have a tantrum for whatever reason short of a fraud (I do not think it was a fraud).

It seems from the way it played out that reputational damage or embarrassment was a real possibility - dammed if he reneges, and dammed if he buys it.

My conclusion is unchanged .. the answer is technologically underwhelming, and the mechanics to achieve PM simple but left field - way out in left field, imo ! In today's energy hungry context that hesitancy and reticence reaction might be far less, no matter how mechanically unsophisticated the answer may be. A PM machine is a PM machine after all !

[Leafy]

A business person only care how to make money off this deal. The fact that the wheel is simple say that he cannot make money off of it. Patents won't do anything because you can't patent law of nature. People can modify 50% of the design and they can claim a new patent. The only candidate for buying the wheel is the government because the money comes from tax payers. The problem back then probably the same as today, it would put thousands out of jobs and create massive economic chaos. So why buy an invention to shelf it.

[agor95]

I just get this feeling the increase size of the wheel does not cause an increase in power. Adding wheels on the same axle just adds the power only.

The wheel presented was a favourable size to show the effect.

However steam power would increase with volume / pressure.

Regards

[Fletcher]

I think we had better get on and discover it and build it.

Then a lot of questions can be answered ipso facto.

[MrTim]

I think we had better get on and discover it and build it.

Working on it! (Been a bit busy this month, though... ;-) I usually build small balsa mechs to test my ideas, but I'm chancing building a fullsize wheel for a change since I have all the materials gathered. If it doesn't work, I'll have a unique art sculpture... ;-)

I just get this feeling the increase size of the wheel does not cause an increase in power.

(I theorize) increasing the mass of the weights is what determines the power i.e. torque. The actual thickness of the wheel would depend on how much mass you want to stuff in it (Bessler kept them skinny so they'd be more impressive), diameter works itself out, as you'll have to build it with enough room for the mechs to move.

Right, so an intelligent buyer would have secured the patent. It wouldn’t be necessary to keep it secret. Anyone interested in a pm wheel would have to pay for a license to build one. Unlicensed versions would be destroyed.

The only reason to get a patent on it these days would be to put your name on it. Once the genii is out of the bottle, you wouldn't be able to stop wheels being built (nor should you.) Big companies will be hesitant to openly build any (they'll patiently wait for the patent to expire), and trying to stop every "infringer" will mean you will spend the rest of your life in court trying to extract money from people who most likely don't have much of any...

[cloud camper]

No one has ever figured out why B insisted on sloppy scissor blocks instead of simpler and more accurate rods and bell cranks.

My theory is that with Fletcher's design with all the weights on the down going side of the wheel, a degree of slop was necessary in the extension/retraction of the weights since we have impacts to deal with.

B also said that the mechanism could be "off" a bit here and there and still work fine so this statement seems compatible with the use of sloppy scissor blocks.

A very "tight" control using rods and bellcranks may have caused the mechanism to bind up - and apparently did one time when the wheel stopped mid demonstration and had to reach inside the wheel to make adjustments!

Hopefully this can be tested in simulation!

[cloud camper]

Now that we have cleared out the entire upgoing side of the wheel in Fletcher's design that leaves that side available for a completely separate mechanism that turns the wheel in the opposite direction.

Why did no one but Fletcher take B at his word?

[Georg Künstler]

by cloud camper » Wed Dec 15, 2021 2:29 am

No one has ever figured out why B insisted on sloppy scissor blocks instead of simpler and more accurate rods and bell cranks.

My theory is that with Fletcher's design with all the weights on the down going side of the wheel, a degree of slop was necessary in the extension/retraction of the weights since we have impacts to deal with.

B also said that the mechanism could be "off" a bit here and there and still work fine so this statement seems compatible with the use of sloppy scissor blocks.

A very "tight" control using rods and bellcranks may have caused the mechanism to bind up - and apparently did one time when the wheel stopped mid demonstration and had to reach inside the wheel to make adjustments!

Hopefully this can be tested in simulation!

indeed, we have impacts to deal with.
, the impact is an essential key to success.
The impact is splitting the forces in an up and a down force under specific conditions.
The impact is therefore not made as an direct impact against the mass.
Instead the mass has to be allowed to make an additional move.
In this case the mass is fired, shoot up in a flash, with an acceleration greater than g.
A mass fired, shoot up, will produce the equivalent downforce, which is used to drive the wheel rotation.
One essential point is the impact point of the structure, which is carrying the weights, to the rim of the wheel.
It is not easy to describe the complete movements which are going on in the wheel, because every weight is in motion.
The structure, carrier of the weights is forcing the weights to move simultaneously.

The scissor is a carrier structure like a parallelogram. a collapsing window.

[cloud camper]

Hey Georg - great points - the impacts are what caused the weights to "shoot up in a flash"!!

He never said how far they shoot up!

I don't remember anyone ever making that connection.

B was being totally truthful here!

[ArchCalc]

Hi I’m new. First post.
I think the one word that could give it all away is “cutout”.

[WaltzCee]

Hi I’m new. First post.
I think the one word that could give it all away is “cutout”.

Hello Arch.

Why do you think "cutout"?

[ArchCalc]

Hi I’m new. First post.
I think the one word that could give it all away is “cutout”.

Hello Arch.

Why do you think "cutout"?

I think I should have said blank space. Instead of crowding weights together, create a blank space behind them.