MT137 used to reset internal weights

[cloud camper]

As an alternative to lightweight pipes what about a continuous tight string over ultra lightweight pulleys at each end, [ have to keep the inertia down, eh! :-) ] with the weights attached to one side of the continuous loop. This fits Karl's description better than rods.

No point in anyone rushing off for a patent as this has been disclosed on an open forum.

Hey Frank - yeah that could be tried - on a real build should be easy - in simworld maybe not as it would add a lot of computational load. It's a lot easier to do in the sim if each rope is separate

[cloud camper]

. .. .. .
Interesting work CC.

• Do you intend to combine this force with c.f.?
  What is the rpm of the animation.

Yeah Walt thanks - that was kind of the idea - in a real world build we would use coil springs instead of hard impacts.

Now when the weight changes direction on impact there is a moment in time when there is no CF.
Hard to envision that in the sim because it happens so fast but using coil springs there will be more deceleration time and then acceleration time.

The idea would be to hit the weight with a reset pulse when CF was zero or minimal reducing or
minimizing work required to reset against CF. That was the plan anyway.

[WaltzCee]

I have an idea but I also have an appointment.

When I get back I'll post it.

[cloud camper]

I’m sorry to intrude in this discussion but where did anyone find this statement, “ could this be the "intricate system of weights and strings" as described by Count Karl when B tore the covers off the wheel for Karl to inspect? It is a complete fabrication. There is no documentary evidence about the interior of Bessler’s wheels other than witness statements about its speed and noise. Those words look very much like something Ken B might have written in his big book to lend support to his theory about the wheel. Or Frank Edwards’s book about UFOs, etc.

JC

OK John, I am not a Bessler historian as yourself but I was certain I had run across this quote somewhere so I cannot vouch for any authenticity but this is probably where I and Raj picked that
quote up. I completely defer to your knowledge and years of careful research in this area!!

This is from the website Orffyreus (Bessler) and his Perpetual Motion Wheels. There is a huge amount of data here and I do not recall reading your opinion on this site - it's been around a long time!

https://orffyre.tripod.com/overview.html

"The Landgrave of Hesse-Kassel Karl had offered protection and sponsorship to Bessler only on condition the machine was genuine. He negotiated with eminent persons and heed to their opinion. To prevent risking his reputation, Karl insisted on seeing inside the wheel. Bessler agreed and requested a suitable reward for showing the great secret. After seeing the secret, Karl gave the inventor his full and considerable support and also the award 4000 Thaler!.

Orffyreus was highly fearful that someone would rob the secret of his remarkable wheel, cheating him of his rights. He did not want to risk losing neither the money nor the secret as he had many ambitions to complete. Orffyreus did not allow any one to view the inner workings of the wheel, except Count Karl, only for a single time. How it came to be that the Count was allowed to view the wheel is unknown and still a mystery. Perhaps by some mysterious maneuvering, Karl succeeded to induce the inventor to let him see the secret, internal mechanism of the machine and he became the only fortunate man to learn the secret. For this Karl gave a handsome amount of 4000 Thalers. Count Karl made a promise to Orffyreus that he would never disclose the secret to anyone until Orffyreus would get his reward. Orffyreus permitted him to have a glimpse of the interior, but how long we do not know, we can only speculate that Orffyreus must have imposed some time limit to watch the mechanism. Whatever be the duration, Karl was intelligent enough to learn the working mechanism of the machine at a glance therefore he himself was satisfied as to the validity of Orffyreus claim and did not bother what the rest world accused Orffyreus of being a fraud. Having learnt the secret, Karl rushed to his residence to write an account of what he had seen. Count described an intricate system of weights and strings. When the oiled cloth was removed and left nude wrote Count Karl, he found himself gazing upon a very simple arrangement of weights and levers. He never disclosed the secret what he had seen. However, Karl did state to his ministers that he believed the wheel was a true perpetual motion machine and he was amazed that no one had invented a similar machine before Bessler. He also stated that machine was so simple and easy to understand that a "carpenters boy" could build one after seeing inside the wheel."

OK John, again I am not trying to defend a viewpoint or assert my "rightness", just reporting where I read it!

I certainly appreciate all your work on verifying historical accuracy!!

https://orffyre.tripod.com/id26.html

[ovyyus]

Cloud camper, who is the author?

[John Collins]

Ok I know all about this web site, it is written and run by a Dr Ramesh Menaria. He was working as a lecturer in post graduate department of chemistry, Government College, Banswara, India, back in 2005.
He describes how he based his research in
“A Brief Note about Rediscovering Perpetual Motion in Light of Vedic Science
I recollect, during early 80s, it was auspicious day of Buddha Purnima. My GURU Deva Ramananda was giving discourse on Budhha to his disciples. When my Guru ended his sermon, I raised some questions to him.”

He uses “Vedic Philosophy” given to him by his guru, Deva Ramananda, and to be frank the whole web site is a mishmash of stuff he took from my books and other more speculative books, plus his guru’s interpretation and he even delves into the history of Madam Blavatsky and the Chinese mystic Lo Tzu. In my opinion you should dismiss the content of the whole web site as it is impossible to pull anything of value out of it. He even presents imagined dialogues from the Weissenstein castle, a mixture, he admits, of science and mystic or spiritual interpretation.

JC

[Sam Peppiatt]

John,
He does speak well of him, well of Bessler as you have------------------------------------Sam

[cloud camper]

OK, not sure if we're making any progress but it's fun to speculate!

Just trying to optimize the power output - lengthened the arms on the MT138 toy page weights and this seems to provide greater torque but at the
tradeoff of the top arm taking longer to reset.

I didn't even notice this before but we're actually getting two complete power strokes although very messy and uncontrolled but this seems somewhat promising to me. I've got a mechanism designed to control the weights but unfortunately WM2D blows up when I try it and haven't found a way around it.

Prolly have to try those stupid scissor blocks!!

The main feature of this concept is that the wheel begins spinning immediately providing momentum to the MT137 based reset mechanism on the back side of the wheel (not shown here) then borrowing some of that momentum back to reset the lower weight. Who knows if there will be any momentum left?

I sure don't know - looks like it's going to take a physical test to really confirm anything but it seems like an easy build.

What could possibly go wrong??

[Georg Künstler]

by cloud camper » Sat Feb 26, 2022 12:51 am
I've got a mechanism designed to control the weights but unfortunately WM2D blows up when I try it and haven't found a way around it.

What is the error message from WM2D ?
Try to find why you get this error message, there will be a profound reason.
I think that WM2D cannot handle impacts correctly because this including in an oscillation a jump/jerk function.

Step functions are oscillations with a steep edge, like a sawtooth or a square wave.
In your construction you must have an oscillation with a steep edge.

[cloud camper]

Wie Gehts Georg - yeah, no actual error message, just trying a bicycle chain style linkage from one weight to the other thru the hub.

WM2D just won't let me place a sprocket at the hinge point of the weights. I think I have a pretty slick control system but it may have to wait for the physical test.

Georg I know you are interested in resonance phenomena and so am I and I ran into this just playing around. I wasn't going to post it and it's probably a software error so it probably means nothing. There is no dampening in the system currently so that's another factor. No error messages though!

[cloud camper]

Guess I was a little too greedy on the swingarm length previously so shortened them up to a mid length and now there is fairly nice behavior with only one ugly bounce, almost civilized and proper. Less torque tho but we're getting two more or less complete power strokes.

As the wheel speeds up (assuming it ever does) the upper reset should become snappier and more efficient.

This is only the startup phase and we need much more on screen machinery to get to the sustained phase. This is all designed on paper but so far WM2D will not allow placing a chain sprocket on the hinge point of the swinging weights - ugghhh!! Anyone have any ideas how to get around this restriction? Then I can input the reset mechanism for the lower weight.

I believe B used a very similar system here as the self starting feature is baked into the design and we are using CF to advantage not to our detriment.

[Tarsier79]

CC, in the properties of the gear, deselect rod, and manually input the gear ratio.

[Fletcher]

This is all designed on paper but so far WM2D will not allow placing a chain sprocket on the hinge point of the swinging weights - ugghhh!! Anyone have any ideas how to get around this restriction? Then I can input the reset mechanism for the lower weight.

As per T79 ..

Also try this, .. I usually do it this way as a matter of course.

Create a small circle with low mass. Pin joint this so that the circle can rotate around the pin. To the circle attach a low mass rod, to which is attached your usual mass etc. The point is the small circle radius plus rod length is the entire length of the pendulum arm.

Then attach the gear element to the center small circle (and not the rod) !

[SHADOW]

Bonjour
Voici comment j'ai du contourné le problème sur Algodoo.
Je ne sais pas si cette solution est appropriée pour résoudre votre soucis.
Cordialement,
J.B

Hello
Here’s how I got around the problem on Algodoo.
I don’t know if this solution is appropriate to solve your problem.
Sincerely,
J.B.

[cloud camper]

Thanks for all the ideas guys!!