THE wheel fatal flaw that no one notice

[SHADOW]

Pour l'instant je parcoure les MT pour voir ou B. pourrait nous duper, pour essayer ce qui pourrait se coupler pour prendre le relais de l'un par rapport à l'autre.
Les MT à mon sens sont un parcourt à suivre pour identifier ce qui est à retenir ou à rejeter.
Je ne pense pas que B. ait construit tous ces systèmes mais qu’il les a passé au crible de ses connaissances pour en tirer sa propre solution.
Si la page jouets est la quintessence de son savoir, il nous reste à trouver qui fait quoi avec les suggestions des MT.
[ca y est j’ai réussi à faire un tour :7) ]
J.B

For now I go through the MT to see or B. could fool us to, try what could be coupled to take over from one to the other.
The MT in my opinion are a journey to follow to identify what is to remember or to reject.
I don’t think B has built all of these systems, but I think he has gone through all of them to come up with his own solution.
If the toys page is the epitome of his knowledge, we still have to find out who does what with the MT suggestions.
[ca is it I managed to do a tour :7) ]
J.B

[agor95]

here is the issue of lack of response meaning 1. agree and understand 2. not interested and 3. do not understand

I've been consistently at this for over 20 years. In that time I've seen all sorts of people here, some incredibly motivated, talented, educated, and smart, all trying to unpick the web that B. set. With no success, along with the thousands before them also trying to build a self-moving weight-shifting OB wheel.

0 O 0

It can be made self-sustaining (self-moving / permanent animation) with the addition of a Prime Mover ! And for me the hunt is on for, and only about, that illusive and hidden mechanical Prime Mover assembly.

A well penned reply as always and a valid pursuit for the 'Hidden Mechanical Prime Mover'.

I believe item 2. & 3. are combined in my original post. For a person who does not understand and does not post for clarification is not interested enough. Naturally when 1 person does request clarification to understand there are going to be more people this addresses.

Hidden Mechanical Prime Mover therefore needs to convert the differences within it's dynamic environment to do work of increasing the wheels rotation.

Also the actual rotation rise increases the dynamic differences within the environment.

Regards

[SHADOW]

On peut aussi se poser la question si l'ensemble prime moteur tourne avec la roue ou s’il est relativement immobile tel que le suggère le MT 13.
Le prime moteur actionnant le second système d'entrainement de la roue qui une fois lancé réarme le prime moteur et ainsi de suite.


The question can also be asked whether the prime engine assembly rotates with the wheel or is relatively stationary as suggested by MT 13.
The prime motor actuating the second wheel drive system that once launched reset the prime engine and so on.

[daxwc]

Fletcher: And as the pendulum slows to near stationary around 11.30 o'cl on the ascent theoretically the Prime Mover assembly will nudge / kick / accelerate it up and over 12 o'cl to begin the descent process again but with some residual momentum…

Why does it need to go up and over 12 o’clock? Have you considered moving it sideways in the 3rd plane from 11 o’clock to 2 o’clock?
http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2018/ ... 0use%20the

[Sam Peppiatt]

daxwc,
I think Fletcher is on the right track. Yes, at or about 11:30 is critical. Some thing has to happen to help the weight(s) up and over the top, so that the weight can again, drive the wheel down. But, HOW to do that, remains elusive---------------------Sam
(The longer I work on it, the less I know)

[Leafy]

I’ll tell you why I think:

The prime mover. - just a chunk of weight to push on
Prime mover energy - inertia acceleration

Consider a wheel I draw

It lay horizontally so gravity is not involved
The ball at A is moving along with the wheel clockwise

Energy is used to shoot the ball to the right.
The wheel speed up.
The ball moves along the rim and hit stopper at B and get locked in.

The result is the wheel slow down to its original speed. Conservation of momentum.

Now let’s stand the wheel up vertically where gravity is involved.
When the ball is shot to the right, the wheel speed up as previous case.
The ball climb up along the rim and stopped at B and get locked in.
This time it’s different because gravity slows the ball down.

The wheel gained speed.

Repeat the process and the wheel keep speed up indefinitely without external torque.

[daxwc]

Sam: I think Fletcher is on the right track. Yes, at or about 11:30 is critical. Some thing has to happen to help the weight(s) up and over the top, so that the weight can again, drive the wheel down.

At 11:30 PM momentum of a single weight system is dead. Torque is highest at 3 PM and most momentum at 6 PM. Something need to happen when there is energy to do so. The weight doesn’t have to drive the wheel down it just needs to get back to the other side and same radius with efficient of energy transfer as possible.

Even if at 11:30 and stalled it dropped down and swung into the right-hand quadrant as long as it gets to maximum radius by 3 PM. I understand what Fletcher is getting at a completely different energy source but moving COM like the high jump flop should be considered.

My unexpert opinion anyway.

[Sam Peppiatt]

daxwc,
I see what you mean, perhaps I have it all wrong. What can I say you are right. It seamed to make sense when I said, now not so much.......In the past, given a wheel with two weights, the one at 3:00 has to get the other one up and over at 12:00. But seams like that never happens, at least not continuously. I've been thinking of two rollers, weights, working together, one helping the other some way. As one is falling in turning the wheel, it would also give the other one an assist over the top, not sure-------Sam

[Fletcher]

Pour l'instant je parcoure les MT pour voir ou B. pourrait nous duper, pour essayer ce qui pourrait se coupler pour prendre le relais de l'un par rapport à l'autre.
Les MT à mon sens sont un parcourt à suivre pour identifier ce qui est à retenir ou à rejeter.
Je ne pense pas que B. ait construit tous ces systèmes mais qu’il les a passé au crible de ses connaissances pour en tirer sa propre solution.
Si la page jouets est la quintessence de son savoir, il nous reste à trouver qui fait quoi avec les suggestions des MT.
[ca y est j’ai réussi à faire un tour :7) ]
J.B

For now I go through the MT to see or B. could fool us to, try what could be coupled to take over from one to the other.

The MT in my opinion are a journey to follow to identify what is to remember or to reject.

I don’t think B has built all of these systems, but I think he has gone through all of them to come up with his own solution.

If the toys page is the epitome of his knowledge, we still have to find out who does what with the MT suggestions.

[ I've managed to do a lap :7) ]

Of course you must follow your own instincts. Combining one illustration with another for a 'runner' is the more literal and common interpretation than me proposing the Toy's Page is solely the caricature of Prime Mover apparatus to be combined with other illustrations to find a motion and eventual movement of a complete 'runner'. No, .. B. did not build all these illustrations (he did say he had built about 100 attempts however, in AP IIRC). They are some of what he built and some of what he came across in his travels and studies. Indeed, the Toy's Page promises something mechanically extraordinary (and worthy) for those who know how to apply them differently.

[Fletcher]

.. dp ..

[Fletcher]

On peut aussi se poser la question si l'ensemble prime moteur tourne avec la roue ou s’il est relativement immobile tel que le suggère le MT 13.
Le prime moteur actionnant le second système d'entrainement de la roue qui une fois lancé réarme le prime moteur et ainsi de suite.


The question can also be asked whether the prime engine assembly rotates with the wheel or is relatively stationary as suggested by MT 13.

The prime motor actuating the second wheel drive system that once launched reset the prime engine and so on.

From John Collins translated works of B's. books ..

"all the inmost parts, and the perpetual-motion structures, retain the power of free movement, as I've been saying since 1712" AP pg 295

"by making the true claim - that no weights hang from the axle of my wheel" – AP pg 281 pg 278 digital

"in a true Perpetuum Mobile everything must, necessarily, go round together. There can be nothing involved in it which remains stationary on the axle" – AP pg 361

[SHADOW]

Il est difficile pour moi de prendre pour argent comptant les traductions provenant d'un vieil allemand traduit en fin de parcours en français, en passant par l’allemand moderne puis par l’anglais.
Sans mettre en cause la démarche de J.C car sans son travail je n’aurais pas d’approche correcte.
J.B

It is difficult for me to take at face value translations from an old German translated at the end of the journey into French, through modern German and then English.
Without questioning J.C.’s approach because without his work I would not have a correct approach.
J.B

[Fletcher]

Hidden Mechanical Prime Mover therefore needs to convert the differences within it's dynamic environment to do work of increasing the wheels rotation.

Also the actual rotation rise increases the dynamic differences within the environment.

Regards

IMO .. the Prime Mover increases the rotation rate (increase momentum) of the whole of wheel, of which it is a part of, as it moves with the wheel.

I think you are suggesting that it takes it's "energy" from the ambient (and dynamic) environment to make the wheel rotation faster, thus depleting the "energy' from the pool it captured it from by an equal amount. And in turn the faster wheel rotation increases the ambient dynamic in a sort of runaway asymmetric feedback.

As I've said before I don't believe it is "energy / fuel" as we know it. There are no CO2 emissions lol. Some time ago in JC's blog I put the case that to stay within the confines of the currently known Laws then a likely candidate would be a momentum transfer between the wheel and the earth system. With the wheel gaining a small amount of local momentum (increasing rotation rate) and the earth losing an
infinitesimal portion of its aggregate momentum in compensation. A symmetric relationship. However TOTAL local momentum is conserved.

[Fletcher]

Il est difficile pour moi de prendre pour argent comptant les traductions provenant d'un vieil allemand traduit en fin de parcours en français, en passant par l’allemand moderne puis par l’anglais.
Sans mettre en cause la démarche de J.C car sans son travail je n’aurais pas d’approche correcte.
J.B

It is difficult for me to take at face value translations from an old German translated at the end of the journey into French, through modern German and then English.
Without questioning J.C.’s approach because without his work I would not have a correct approach.
J.B

FWIW .. JC's translator was a Mr Mike Senior (Englishman) - who was very skilled and experienced and, had a degree in old German and who could by all accounts also accurately translate Latin and French.

[Fletcher]

Fletcher: And as the pendulum slows to near stationary around 11.30 o'cl on the ascent theoretically the Prime Mover assembly will nudge / kick / accelerate it up and over 12 o'cl to begin the descent process again but with some residual momentum…

Why does it need to go up and over 12 o’clock?

Have you considered moving it sideways in the 3rd plane from 11 o’clock to 2 o’clock?
http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2018/ ... 0use%20the

I think Fletcher is on the right track. Yes, at or about 11:30 is critical. Some thing has to happen to help the weight(s) up and over the top, so that the weight can again, drive the wheel down.

At 11:30 PM momentum of a single weight system is dead. Torque is highest at 3 PM and most momentum at 6 PM. Something need to happen when there is energy to do so. The weight doesn’t have to drive the wheel down it just needs to get back to the other side and same radius with efficient of energy transfer as possible.

Even if at 11:30 and stalled it dropped down and swung into the right-hand quadrant as long as it gets to maximum radius by 3 PM. I understand what Fletcher is getting at a completely different energy source but moving COM like the high jump flop should be considered.

My unexpert opinion anyway.

Hi dax .. B's. first public wheel was only 10 cms deep (4 inches) and that's the outside dimensions. There was barely any room for anything to move in the vertical plane (x,y) let alone the z plane. And if it did it would take time to accelerate and decelerate and swing thru its horizontal plane arc impeding the wheel speed as it transitioned.

And it was not an "energy" per se, imo.

The closest readily recognizable simple analogy I can give is the well known "ice skater effect" of changing MOI - bringing the wheel MOI closer to the axle thereby temporarily speeding up the wheel rpm to give it a kick up and over the hump in the vertical plane (Prime Mover initiated by gravity). Ordinarily, with the ice skater effect, as soon a reset occurs (going back to original wheel configuration and MOI) the rpm also declines to original with no NET sustainable advantage [ZERO SUM GAME].

However .. I believe that for B's internal arrangement (comes with a twist) on reset after deployment the temporary momentum gain was not altogether extinguished i.e. PLUS SUM GAME ! And so the wheel gained in momentum and was self-moving.