THE wheel fatal flaw that no one notice

[Fletcher]

Hey Sam .. for your consideration here's the rest of my current theory in a place close by the the first part above.

Continued ..

If a runner has excess momentum so that it 'gains', then it will also have excess energy.

** The assumption here is that the runner works within the boundaries of the known Laws of Mechanics and Newton's Laws, and Laws of Conservation of Energy, Momentum, and Angular Momentum. **

Therefore, for a runner to have positive 'gain' it must mechanically produce a local asymmetric torque i.e. inside the wheel a Net Positive Torque.

With the above assumptions as a containment boundary this means that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction (Newton).

Thus, to have a Net Positive Torque to produce the positive 'gain' something else must lose an equal amount of 'gain' i.e. a Net Negative Torque. The positive gain and the negative gain cancel out within the 'system' so the Laws are complied with at all times.

In short .. if the local environment of the wheel can gain in momentum and energy, then the thing it is connected to and interacts with (the wider environment such as earth and solar system etc) must lose a proportionate amount of momentum and energy to keep the books balanced.

And that's my current explanation for where the excess energy and momentum comes from in a self-moving true gravity-only runner.

[SHADOW]

Bonjour Fletcher,
Une question me taraude l'esprits :
Est-il précisé quelque part dans les témoignages ou écrits de Bessler si la toile cirée qui recouvre la roue tourne avec la roue ?
J.B

Hello Fletcher,
One question is on my mind:
Is it specified somewhere in Bessler's testimonies or writings whether the oilcloth that covers the wheel turns with the wheel ?
J.B

[spinner361]

Fletcher, I could be wrong, but I really think that it buys energy from itself, and the only ways that it interacts with the outside world are through its mass (which it has even when not moving), air resistance, and when something is connected to the output shaft.

Bessler set up a twelve foot wheel on top of two pillars. Those pillars had to be at least six feet high. I did not see guy lines used for stabilization like radio towers have. The wheel started with little resistance and did not cause the pillars to tip over.

I think that a mechanical perpetual motion wheel will work in deep outer space.

[eccentrically1]

The wheels weren't on 6 foot pillars, they were on posts from floor to ceiling.

[Sam Peppiatt]

Fletcher,
I understand what you are saying and, it does look to be impossible. However, I still think the shifting of the weights has to be resolved in some way. I've started working with rollers; they might answer some of the questions, or not, as the case may be-------------------------------Sam

Live your days inspired anew; "LYDIA"

[Fletcher]

Hello Fletcher,
One question is on my mind:

Is it specified somewhere in Bessler's testimonies or writings whether the oilcloth that covers the wheel turns with the wheel ?
J.B

His first display wheels which were one-way wheels were covered in thin planks of wood - I would call them wood slats.

His later larger diameter wheels were covered in oil cloth pinned / tacked to the rim structure (as per the DT engravings) - they probably were pinned elsewhere as well, such as at the axle and perhaps various positions along the radius (but not shown in the engravings IINM).

Witnesses, such as Wolff talk about being able to partially see inside thru a gap in the slat when stopped, and there was a repair portal in the oil cloth covered wheels. If the coverings had not turned with the wheel the witnesses and testimonials would have described this imo. They simply describe that the wheels were covered etc etc.

........................

Spinner .. every B. accredited engraving or drawing I've seen shows the wheels between supports anchored to both the floor and the ceiling of the room they are in. Even Borlach and his infamous engraving of the Merseburg wheel shows the same. In fact it was necessary because that's how he proposed the hidden transmission of forces to hand turn the wheel i.e. thru the pillar and ceiling unobserved.

[Fletcher]

Fletcher,
I understand what you are saying and, it does look to be impossible. However, I still think the shifting of the weights has to be resolved in some way. I've started working with rollers; they might answer some of the questions, or not, as the case may be-------------------------------Sam

Live your days inspired anew; "LYDIA"

Good luck with your experiments Sam ..

I don't expect everyone to automatically change tack just because I propose something different from the standard conservative OB wheel mass-shifting approach. Ideas can become entrenched and hard to shift, as it was for me initially.

If just a few unsuccessful die-hards are caused to look at the problem and the potential solutions differently, then I will be satisfied that my efforts to lay out a plausible path (if not all the detail at this time) to a solution to a self-moving wheel has a worth to the discussion forum.

[spinner361]

I thought about it a little bit more, and I think that as much as the center of mass jitters, that is how much it interacts with its surroundings for the mass portion. An ideal center of mass that does not change position will have no effect in that way.

[Fletcher]

Side Note : It will come as no great surprise to many that I consider B's. Toy's Page (TP) to be his most important work that he produced.

Firstly, it was not of course published until John Collins translated version MT in 2007. Now its available to all in hard copy and digital versions. Until then we had only B's. published books (intended for public consumption) to read etc. It was within his private illustrations and writings, we now call MT.

Secondly, it is important to me for another reason. The various discussions around what B. wrote at the bottom of the illustration, and its meaning.

Over the years I have kept a file on what I considered important or revealing about those few words associated with the TP.

Below is my summary of some of the commentaries taken from the forum, for your consideration.

N.B. Stewart Hughes is an old-time member skilled in translating Old German, Latin, and French. His research is meticulous and cross-checked against other handwriting examples of B. when a word or two can appear ambiguous. Case in point (Hans von Lieven translation, and others); 'joch' is in fact 'doch', and 'arbeit' is in fact 'stecket'. B's. handwriting is difficult to read which is why it needs to be cross-checked against other examples to get a fair level of accuracy within another context.

..................

TOPIC BW.com re: The last toy Post by Stewart » Sat 10 Jan, 2004 3:27 pm

Stewart Hughes 2004 ..

There is a short piece of text at the bottom of the toy page. John provided the following translations in a post on the old board:

a) "5. Children's "games" In which yoke one may also find something special whoever knows how to apply (arrange?) them differently".

b) "5. Children's game in which there is something extraordinary for anyone who knows how to apply the game in a different way."

c) "Fifthly - the children are instrumental, through their play, in causing the force - through some particular impulse - to be transferred from the abandoned foot (fuss) over (to come) to be applied to the other."

Stewart Hughes 2010 ..

With 'doch' and 'stecket' the sentence makes perfect sense, with 'Joch' and 'Arbeit' it isn't grammatically correct and doesn't make any sense either. Here's how the correct transcription translates into English: (re : Hans von Lieven discussion)

"5 children's games In which however there may also be something special, for those who know of another way to apply them."

Stewart Hughes 2006 ..

5. Kinder-Spiele
In welchen doch auch
was besonders stecket, wer
Sie auf andere Weise zu appliciren
weis.

Word for word:

Five childrens' games in which however also something special put, who them of another way to apply knows.

Better grammar:

Five childrens' games in which however there is also something special for anyone who knows of another way to apply them.

............

DeepL Translation :

5. Kinder-Spiele
In welchen doch auch
was besonders stecket, wer
Sie auf andere Weise zu appliciren
weis.

5. children's games
In which also
something special, who
who knows how to apply them
know how.

.............

N.B. spiele - the additional e indicates plural games which confirms something special (extraordinary) for those who know how (of another way) to apply "them".

This strongly suggests to me that elemental factors of the games form one new entity with surprising physical outcomes.

ETA : Added the TP for context, for those who haven't memorized it.

.............

[Sam Peppiatt]

Fletcher maybe you have some thing figured out. I find clues are fickle and unreliable. A long time ago Stewart suggested that Bessler's wheel will have to be invented all over again. I've stuck with that idea, right or wrong-------------Sam

[spinner361]

I do not think that there is any way to derive a working machine from Bessler's clues. They seem to be vague and ambiguous.

[Fletcher]

Fletcher maybe you have some thing figured out. I find clues are fickle and unreliable. A long time ago Stewart suggested that Bessler's wheel will have to be invented all over again. I've stuck with that idea, right or wrong-------------Sam

I agree with you Sam .. 'they' are fickle and unreliable .. there is soooo many of them .. there is little or no context to go by .. there's illustrative clues, numerology clues, Masonic clues, plays on words (he was a wordsmith) .. the list goes on .. the one that I think without-a-doubt is a 'clue' is his name changes after his success, to Johan Ernst Elias Bessler (from christened Elias Bessler) - this initializes to J.E.E.B. - and I talked about Rot13 and the Roman Numeral substitution for those initials previously.

I also agree with Stewart .. that you'd have to reinvent it all over again (maybe it'd take less time and effort) .. and I also, like you, have stuck to that philosophy in the main .. that is why I spent so long attempting to quantify where the energy comes from .. then I could begin to backward-look from the top-down and not just the bottom-up. And then maybe that backward-look would shine some things B. in a different light in retrospect - I won't know that till I do some mock-ups and builds of my current directions.

There is no right or wrong approach .. we each do what-we-gotta-do, and can do .. and hopefully someone will solve the riddle with a runner, or a valid design for a runner. And put the rest of us out of our torment, lol. I for one would be grateful.

ETA : the thing is with the TP is that it remained in his private collection - for his eyes only. Yet still he did not write MT like a factual and dry text book (he well could have) - his personality was better suited to writing it in the style of a mystery .. albeit without the prose and wordiness etc from GB, AP, and DT.

[Tarsier79]

Sorry to be so obtuse... What is TP?

[Fletcher]

Toilet Paper

do not think that there is any way to derive a working machine from Bessler's clues. They seem to be vague and ambiguous.

For B. to claim prior art (then or now, or in the future) there would have to be at least a tenuous link or thread to clearly identify. So there must be a way, .. or .. very likely there is, tho not guaranteed to be found conclusively.

It is a matter of do you want to spend your life letting B. bounce around inside your head (my head is occupied already lol) and attempting to unravel the riddles, webs, and blind alley's, with no guarantee of success. Seems statistically a low probability of success.

.. OR .. treat them as an interesting aside that other dedicated people work on diligently, and forge ahead with your own thoughts about PM without your mind being cluttered, and distracted, or influenced greatly by them. We have full lives to lead after-all. Also statistically a low probability of success

I bounced between both when the mood suited me ! ..

.. Equation : 2 x statistically a low probability of success = very small probability of success.

[spinner361]

Toilet Paper

Are you having a good day?

Would you rather have me keep my thoughts to myself? Please let me know.

I have found what I have found. I can see what I can see now. I can also see what I could not see before. I believe that running experiments and praying hard are the best ways to find a solution.