Part Three is the Charm

[Leafy]

Here is a thing I see with the storkbill

Supposed we have a rotating wheel with the storkbill attached as below.

When the 1lb weight is at the bottom, it combine with Centrifugal force(8lb) for the total of 9lb.
The top 2.2lb has CF(4.4lb) for the combine weight of 2.2lb. It is half storkbill distance of the bottom.
Obviously the bottom is heavier so the 1lb lift the 2.2lb for the ratio of 1:2. We have a gain.

When the 1lb weight is at the top, it combines with the CF (8lb) for the total of 7lb pointing up.
The bottom 2.2lb has CF(4.4lb) for the combine weight of 6.6lb.
The top 1lb going to pull the 2.2lb up.

[Leafy]

Never mind, wrong math, just stick with the lever lol

[Fletcher]

** Here I draw the difference to Bessler Wheels as a separate sub-class of environmental machines, not requiring a physical interface for heat or pressure exchange and/or replenishment.

That would be a separate class of environmental machine, I can't think of another example, can anyone?

I called it sub-class of environmental machine simply because it operates at the earths surface in a gravity field, the same environment and ecosystems as the ambient pressure and heat engines. They share some ancestral DNA of mechanics. Separate class of environmental machine probably would be better.

The fuel / energy inputs of the heat and pressure engines is well known. Ultimately they revert back to sunlight energy and photosynthetic processes and oxidation and combustion etc. They have colonized the land, seas, and sky.

Our fellow is of a different ancient lineage. He does not rely on sunlight and common-garden oxidation processes etc. His primordial fuel / energy source originates from wandering amongst the stars, taking momentum as he slingshots by.

;7)

[mryy]

Let's entertain for a moment your position that the passage is referring to a prime mover unit which is not a simple machine.

Contextually can it draw out a reaction from people exclaiming 'Now I understand!' ? This reaction is one of a surprised yet familiar nature -- one involving an understanding arrived at via a different perspective. I would say no.

The key words were 'if B. were to teach' - educate, show by demonstration. Clearly he had already done that with Karl. Karl gained a new perspective from viewing familiar items and having it explained to him. He commented it was easy to understand and simple to build, and he was surprised no one else had thought of it .. tho I'd add, once you in hindsight knew how it generated its excess impetus and gained momentum. I would call that an "aha" moment. You might even face-palm and say "now I understand". Understand what you hadn't understood before, had no inkling of, even tho you were experienced in Mathematics and matters Mechanics.

We are discussing the AP XXI passage (Collins translation) about the phenomenon of heavier weight rising/lighter weight falling. Let's call it the 4:1. You argue for Karl's examination which really addresses the wheel's design simplicity. I would guess if B. demonstrated the 4:1 (after offering it) Karl may have had another "aha" moment.

I believe the context of the passage is best understood as B.'s riddle of the prime movement. The 4:1 is not real for it is a riddle. Otherwise it would not create the paradoxical situation ("He's right! So am I, and does anyone see why?") and the unexpected post reaction ("Now I understand!") under that passage. A loose analogy is centripetal and centrifugal forces. Centrifugal is a fictitious force that appears real from a certain frame of reference. It's pertains to viewpoint.

From the passage you posit a prime mover separate of a simple machine that actually effects the 4:1. Am I not right? In doing so that will negate the passage's paradoxical tone and the surprise response ending. Two entities (prime mover and simple machine) with contradictory features cannot present a paradox. ONE general class of "Rüst-Zeuge" (mechanical implements) with *seemingly* contradictory ones does.

My 2 cents.

[mryy]

mryy , quite a simple thing to test for starters , pin the weights with the mass ratios you stipulate , at the positions you have drawn on a circle/geometric symmetrical figure on an axle , and first observe the torque , does it go towards the side you think ? does it have enough force ? how many degrees of torque do you get ? will the amount of degrees plus the amount of force be enough ?

Even a piece of cardboard with a simple axle will suffice for such a test.

Good advice. Thanks.

[eccentrically1]

** Here I draw the difference to Bessler Wheels as a separate sub-class of environmental machines, not requiring a physical interface for heat or pressure exchange and/or replenishment.

That would be a separate class of environmental machine, I can't think of another example, can anyone?

I called it sub-class of environmental machine simply because it operates at the earths surface in a gravity field, the same environment and ecosystems as the ambient pressure and heat engines. They share some ancestral DNA of mechanics. Separate class of environmental machine probably would be better.

The fuel / energy inputs of the heat and pressure engines is well known. Ultimately they revert back to sunlight energy and photosynthetic processes and oxidation and combustion etc. They have colonized the land, seas, and sky.

Our fellow is of a different ancient lineage. He does not rely on sunlight and common-garden oxidation processes etc. His primordial fuel / energy source originates from wandering amongst the stars, taking momentum as he slingshots by.

;7)

I didn't think there was an example we could use for a reference. Gravity assist isn't it. The exchange is conservative.

[Fletcher]

I didn't think there was an example we could use for a reference. Gravity assist isn't it. The exchange is conservative.

Momentum exchange is conservative - Momentum is Conserved and so is Energy Conserved.


** Frame of Reference .. One body receives net gain in momentum and energy, and the other a net loss in momentum and energy. >> Thus it appears that a satellite gains in KE from a swing-by maneuver while the other loses KE (albeit almost undetectable).

Momentum is in fact Conserved between the two (the system).

** in the sunlight energy > pressure and heat environmental engines example, energy is also conserved. The sun loses mass, heat and photoelectric energy. The earth gains a portion of that energy which it ultimately converts to mechanical energy in the case of our environmental engines. >> Thus it appears that the heat and pressure engines have gained energy.

In our neck-of-the-woods (at earths surface) both appear to have a gain in energy ! Only the common type is well known or understood.

[WaltzCee]

I believe the context of the passage is best understood as B.'s riddle of the prime movement. The 4:1 is not real for it is a riddle.

If one doubles the radius of a circle, there is 4 times the area. In my npo, the geometry of 4-d time/space screams perpetual motion and creation.

[eccentrically1]

In our neck-of-the-woods (at earths surface) both appear to have a gain in energy ! Only the common type is well known or understood.

Our fellow is of a different ancient lineage. He does not rely on sunlight and common-garden oxidation processes etc. His primordial fuel / energy source originates from wandering amongst the stars, taking momentum as he slingshots by.

Right. Both appear to gain energy. there aren’t any examples.

[mryy]

I believe the context of the passage is best understood as B.'s riddle of the prime movement. The 4:1 is not real for it is a riddle.

If one doubles the radius of a circle, there is 4 times the area. In my npo, the geometry of 4-d time/space screams perpetual motion and creation.

Here is one Illuminati's take on Creation:

In the Beginning, there is The Infinite One. This is the Source of All. Intelligent Infinity. It is the undifferentiated absolute. Within It, is unlimited potential, waiting to 'become'. Think of it as the "uncarved block" of your Taoist traditions.

Infinite Intelligence, becoming 'aware' of Itself, seeks to experience Itself, and The One Infinite Creator is 'born', or 'manifest' (This appears to your 3rd Density comprehension as "Space"). In effect, the 'Creator', is a point of focused Infinite Consciousness or awareness, into Infinite Intelligent Energy. The One Infinite Creator also becoming self aware, seeks too to experience Itself as Creator, and in so doing, begins the next step down in the Creational spiral. The One Infinite Creator, in focusing It's Infinite Intelligence, becomes Intelligent Energy (which you could call the Great Central Sun), and divides Itself into smaller portions of Itself, that can then in turn experience themselves as Creators (or Central Suns). In other words, each Central Sun (or Creator) is a 'step down' in Conscious awareness (or distortion) from the Original 'thought' of Creation. So "In the beginning" was not "The Word", but Thought. The Word, is thought expressed and made manifest as Creator.

There is Unity. Unity is All there is. Infinite Intelligence, and Infinite Energy. The two are One, and within them, is the potental for all Creation. This state of Consciousness could be termed as 'Being'.

Infinite Intelligence does not recognize it's 'potential'. It is the undifferentiated absolute. But Infinite Energy recognizes the potential of 'becoming' all things, in order to bring any desired experience into 'being'.

Intelligent Infinity can be likened to the central 'Heartbeat' of Life, and Infinite Energy as the Spiritual 'Life-blood' (or potential) which 'pumps out' for the Creator to form the Creation.

This image may assist your comprehension:

Intelligent Infinity can be likened to the central 'Heartbeat' of Life, and Infinite Energy as the Spiritual 'Life-blood' (or potential) which 'pumps out' for the Creator to form the Creation

Creation is based upon the 'Three Primary Distortions of The Infinite One'.

1). Free Will:

In the first Law (or distortion) of Creation, the Creator receives the Free Will to know and experience Itself as an individuated though (paradoxically) unified aspect of The One.

2). Love:

In the second Law of Creation, the initial distortion of Free Will, becomes a focus point of awareness known as Logos, or 'Love' (or The Word in biblical terms). Love, or Logos, using It's Infinite Intelligent Energy, then takes on the role of co-creating a vast array of physical illusions ('thought forms') or Densities (which some call Dimensions) in which according to It's Intelligent design, will best offer the range of 'potential' experiences in which It can know Itself.

In effect, the One Infinite Creator, in dividing Itself into Logos, could be termed in your 3rd Density understanding as a 'Universal Creator'. In other words, Logos, creates on a Universal level of Being. Logos creates physical Universes, in which It and the Creator may experience theirself.

("Let there be Light")

3). Light:

To manifest this Infinite spiritual or 'Life-Force' Energy into a physical thought form of Densities, Logos creates the third distortion, of Light. From the three original Primary distortions of The One into making the Creation, arise myriad hierarchies of other sub-distortions, containing their own specific paradoxes. The goal of the Game is to enter into these in further divions of Creation, and then seek to harmonize the Polarities, in order to once again know Oneself as the Creator of them.

The nature of all such physically manifest Energy, is Light. Wherever thus exists any form of physical 'matter', there is Light, or Divine Intelligent Energy at it's Core or Centre.

Something which is Infinite cannot be 'other than', or 'many', An Infinite Creator knows only Unity. Thus, drawing upon It's Infinite Intelligence, the Infinite Creator designed a blueprint based on the finite principles of Free Will of Awareness and sub-level Creations, which in turn, could become aware of themselves, and seek to experience themselves as Creators. And so the "Russian Doll" style experiment was 'stepped down' and down and down. Levels of Creation within levels of Creation.

The One Infinite Creator (or Great Central Sun) steps down It's Infinite Energy to become Logos. Logos in turn designs vast Universes of Space (as yet unmaterialized), stepping down and splitting Itself again, into Logoi (plural), in other words, into an array of Central Suns which will each become a Logos (or 'co-creator') of It's own Universe, with each unique individualized portion of the One Infinite Creator, containing within It as It's very essence, Intelligent Infinity.

Using the Law of Free Will, each Universal Logos (Central Sun) designs and creates It's own version or perspective of 'physical reality' in which to experience Itself as Creator. Stepping down again, It focuses It's Intelligent Energy and creates the unmanifest form of Galaxies within Itself, and splits Itself into yet further 'co-creator' portions ('Sub-Logos' or Suns) which in turn will then design and manifest their own ideas of physical reality in the form of points of Conscious Awareness that we call Suns Stars and Planets.

A 'planetary entity' (or 'Soul') begins the first Density of experience, into which another individualized portion of The One can incarnate. Just as with all Logos and Sub Logos of Creation, each Soul is yet another smaller unique portion of The Infinite One. At first, the Intelligent Energy of the planet is in a state that you could call 'chaos', meaning that It's Energy is undefined. Then the process begins again. The planetary Energy begins to become aware of Itself (the 1st Density of awareness is 'Consciousness'), and the Planetary Logos (sub-sub-Logos in effect) begins to create other downward steps within Itself, and the internal make up of the planet begins to form; as the raw elements of air and fire combine to 'work on' the Waters and Earth, thus arising conscious awareness of their 'being', and the process of 'evolution' begins, forming the 2nd Density.

2nd Density beings begin to become aware of themselves, as being 'separate', and thus begin to evolve toward the 3rd Density of self-conscious-awareness, (the lowest Density into which a 'human soul' can incarnate).

Humans in turn (or the Souls incarnated within them), seek to 'return to the Light' and Love, from which they came, as they begin the journey of progression, from 3rd Density up to the 8th Density, and the return to The Infinite One-ness.

[Fletcher]

In our neck-of-the-woods (at earths surface) both appear to have a gain in energy ! Only the common type is well known or understood.

Our fellow is of a different ancient lineage. He does not rely on sunlight and common-garden oxidation processes etc. His primordial fuel / energy source originates from wandering amongst the stars, taking momentum as he slingshots by.

Right. Both appear to gain energy. there aren’t any examples.

They are two quite different Kingdoms. There's only ever been one possible example of the second Kingdom, and that was 300 odd years ago.

[Fletcher]

>> We are discussing the AP XXI passage (Collins translation) about the phenomenon of heavier weight rising/lighter weight falling. Let's call it the 4:1. You argue for Karl's examination which really addresses the wheel's design simplicity. I would guess if B. demonstrated the 4:1 (after offering it) Karl may have had another "aha" moment.

I believe the context of the passage is best understood as B.'s riddle of the prime movement. The 4:1 is not real for it is a riddle. Otherwise it would not create the paradoxical situation ("He's right! So am I, and does anyone see why?") and the unexpected post reaction ("Now I understand!") under that passage. A loose analogy is centripetal and centrifugal forces. Centrifugal is a fictitious force that appears real from a certain frame of reference. It's pertains to viewpoint.

From the passage you posit a prime mover separate of a simple machine that actually effects the 4:1. Am I not right? In doing so that will negate the passage's paradoxical tone and the surprise response ending. Two entities (prime mover and simple machine) with contradictory features cannot present a paradox. ONE general class of "Rüst-Zeuge" (mechanical implements) with *seemingly* contradictory ones does.

My 2 cents.

Not quite how I see it .. In that passage B. says that W. goes on about there being no mechanical implement suitable for breaking LOL (because they are conservative). B. says he is correct. He also says he also is correct. Because his runners gained in momentum to be self-moving. They got an extra "boost" somewhere inside the mechanics of the wheel. This "boost" gave the wheel its gains. B. suggests that he used mechanical implements to get this boost and therefore W. could not possibly know about every mechanical implement out there, or not yet invented. And he certainly didn't know what B's. special boost implement was. IMO, what it didn't do was break LOL (otherwise W. couldn't be right). Therefore it did something else that made the whole of wheel non-conservative (i.e. a runner).

[ovyyus]

In our neck-of-the-woods (at earths surface) both appear to have a gain in energy ! Only the common type is well known or understood.

Yes, momentum transfer from earth to wheel might seem like a 'true pm' and, if accomplished, would represent a legitimate energy gain (boost) in the wheel. Whether or not a mechanism might be found to somehow effect this momentum transfer is another matter, but at least the idea isn't predicated on magical thinking. So, what would be the system requirements for such a momentum transfer?

[eccentrically1]

In our neck-of-the-woods (at earths surface) both appear to have a gain in energy ! Only the common type is well known or understood.

Our fellow is of a different ancient lineage. He does not rely on sunlight and common-garden oxidation processes etc. His primordial fuel / energy source originates from wandering amongst the stars, taking momentum as he slingshots by.

Right. Both appear to gain energy. there aren’t any examples.

They are two quite different Kingdoms. There's only ever been one possible example of the second Kingdom, and that was 300 odd years ago.

Momentum exchange is conservative - Momentum is Conserved and so is Energy Conserved.

Slingshots of the second Kingdom are not a possible example.

[MrTim]

In our neck-of-the-woods (at earths surface) both appear to have a gain in energy ! Only the common type is well known or understood.

Yes, momentum transfer from earth to wheel might seem like a 'true pm' and, if accomplished, would represent a legitimate energy gain (boost) in the wheel. Whether or not a mechanism might be found to somehow effect this momentum transfer is another matter, but at least the idea isn't predicated on magical thinking. So, what would be the system requirements for such a momentum transfer?

Probably an easy way to describe that would be: the wheel is "rolling downhill" even though held in place by supports.

So, what would be the system requirements for such a momentum transfer?

No magic, just weights and levers. I've almost got it figured out, it's really simple... ;-)