Part Three is the Charm

[johannesbender]

Of course, a runners asymmetric torque capability and, a runners momentum exchange with the earth to gain in momentum, are ultimately one-and-the-same thing in my book, within the framework of Newtonian and Classical Physics.

Happy New Year and prosperous 2023 to everyone !

Yes I suspect if energy/motion is extracted via earth , that it might not be as much as one would hope for , and that a combination of earth energy/motion extraction and perhaps something else like the use of gravity and weight might have to be engineered to actually be able to close the gap for the missing energy conundrum , as Bessler mentioned the power and performance went up when he added more of his mechanism therefor we know it wasn't much as a single effect but could be increased by addition.

[mryy]

Of course, a runners asymmetric torque capability and, a runners momentum exchange with the earth to gain in momentum, are ultimately one-and-the-same thing in my book, within the framework of Newtonian and Classical Physics.

Happy New Year and prosperous 2023 to everyone !

Yes I suspect if energy/motion is extracted via earth , that it might not be as much as one would hope for , and that a combination of earth energy/motion extraction and perhaps something else like the use of gravity and weight might have to be engineered to actually be able to close the gap for the missing energy conundrum , as Bessler mentioned the power and performance went up when he added more of his mechanism therefor we know it wasn't much as a single effect but could be increased by addition.

I suspect the effect increased substantially as a result of more weighted levers striking by gravity the wheel rim stops between 2:00 and 3:00, per rotation. This action transfers energy to the outermost part of the wheel thereby increasing the magnitude of the torque on the descending side. And the sounds heard by the witnesses were the levers hitting these stops.

Note in the Toys Page how the anvils feature rather prominently in the middle within the hammermen pantographs. The anvils are the metaphorical rim stops I believe. The AP poem describes an anvil receiving "many blows" and the children playing with loud "heavy clubs [weighted levers] among the broken columns [stops]." (Collins translation)

According to Wagner, B. "asserts the children in the lane play with his perpetual motion or so-called superior force." (Collins translation) If this is the hoop and stick toy, then it makes all the more sense to me as the stick likely represents the weighted lever hitting the rim stop.

In addition to rim stops levers of longer length are advantageous in effecting greater torque transfer to the rim. B. emphasizes this in his comments of MT10, MT17 and MT18.


P.S. Thank you to the site owner of orffyre.com for offering these drawings. They have been extremely helpful in my study.

[Fletcher]

Or, at least; a Prime .. 'Earth Slow Her Down'.. entity.

The difference, as I see it, is in the examples given by ChatGPT e.g. throw, jump, spin, and mine - accelerate and brake (decelerate) energy must be first given to the system.

Which example do you mean? Moon earth? Or tidal platform ? Or another one?

The differences in the chat and your example?

The first thing I acknowledge is that AM is a conserved quantity (most would agree with this LAW).

The next is that there are known examples of this happening (but probably not known in B's. time) e.g. satellite slingshot maneuver where earth loses RKE and the satellite gains velocity and KE; and the earths rotation dragging the tidal bulge forward of the direct alignment between earth and moon whereby the earth does Work and loses RKE and the moon increases its velocity (KE) and distance from the earth.

Then perhaps most can deduce that physical actions on the earths surface such as a throw, jump, or spin action (examples given by ChatGPT) produce an equal and opposite reaction i.e. AM is imparted to the earth from that first action on the earths surface. I also included the actions of accelerating and decelerating as further examples. A simple analogy would be like the logrolling sport.

I can tell you again how I approached it - I "black-box" it. Take any conservative weight shifting OOB wheel attached to the earths surface and add a hypothetical enclosed "black-box" to each mech and call it a Prime Mover. Its function is to take some of the earths AM and give it to the wheel so that it has an asymmetric torque and accelerates away to operating rpm. Its momentum gain and Work/energy output comes from a momentum exchange process with the earths rotation so that the AM and Energy budgets remain neutral as per Conservation LAWS.

** You have made it very clear that you don't believe such a physical process for a self-moving wheel can be engineered and achieved.

Eventually I was able to bring into focus a theoretical device which to me looks promising, but as yet not tested in the real-world and only part tested in sim-world for various reasons. What I have managed to do has not discouraged me.

This hypothetical mechanical solution is a parasitic Prime Mover device, capable of being embedded into just about any OOB wheel, to potentially make it into a runner. It draws AM from the earths rotation and gives it to the whole-of-wheel i.e. the OOB wheel plus Prime Mover(s) as a whole unit.

To answer your question .. and you may think I am being a smart arse but you'd be wrong .. it uses all of them except spin per se; i.e. throw, jump, and accelerate and decelerate in this hypothetical Prime Mover assembly. There is nothing physically and mechanically recognisable to me as an overt "spinning element" epitomised by the gyroscope and precession forces, or Coriolis force etc.

So I guess the short answer is "Or another one?" ..

[Fletcher]

Of course, a runners asymmetric torque capability and, a runners momentum exchange with the earth to gain in momentum, are ultimately one-and-the-same thing in my book, within the framework of Newtonian and Classical Physics.

Yes I suspect if energy/motion is extracted via earth , that it might not be as much as one would hope for , and that a combination of earth energy/motion extraction and perhaps something else like the use of gravity and weight might have to be engineered to actually be able to close the gap for the missing energy conundrum , as Bessler mentioned the power and performance went up when he added more of his mechanism therefor we know it wasn't much as a single effect but could be increased by addition.

Yes jb .. I agree with you .. not much energy or power but went up with increasing number of mechs (and Prime Movers). The fact that they stood vertically strongly suggests that gravity force and weights had their part to play in a runner. As I said much earlier why didn't he make a self-driving cart and wow the world - because he couldn't - a runner had to be anchored to the earth.

Best for 2023 mate ..

[Tarsier79]

The slingshot maneuver, just like the blackbird and any other engine requires an energy differential to work. The slingshot uses differential KE, the blackbird uses energy differntial of the wind and land. Besslers wheel was travelling at the same speed as the surface of the earth, so no energy differential exists in rotation or KE between the axle and the earth. Once it starts spinning, it now spins at a different speed, so I guess there is a differential, but any energy is extracted from the differential, which will slow down the wheel much more than the earth.

I am struggling to see how we would transfer usable power to the wheel from earth rotation.

[Sam Peppiatt]

I'm with you Tarsier, some things are impossible. I'm afraid this is one of them------------------------------Sam

[Leafy]

The slingshot maneuver, just like the blackbird and any other engine requires an energy differential to work. The slingshot uses differential KE, the blackbird uses energy differntial of the wind and land. Besslers wheel was travelling at the same speed as the surface of the earth, so no energy differential exists in rotation or KE between the axle and the earth. Once it starts spinning, it now spins at a different speed, so I guess there is a differential, but any energy is extracted from the differential, which will slow down the wheel much more than the earth.

I am struggling to see how we would transfer usable power to the wheel from earth rotation.

You can’t. Energy is non-conserved.

[Leafy]

Wheel push on earth to rotates yes, but earth could slow down wheel speed up.

OR, earth could speed up and wheel also speed up.

[Sam Peppiatt]

mryy, I need your help. Your binary star that you drew was really great! But, now I need a tri-star version, with flats------------------------Sam

PS I regret calling your wheel a "Dead Duck". At least I didn't use any 4 letter words, well maybe one.

[mryy]

mryy, I need your help. Your binary star that you drew was really great! But, now I need a tri-star version, with flats------------------------Sam

PS I regret calling your wheel a "Dead Duck". At least I didn't use any 4 letter words, well maybe one.

I can try Sam. What's the height of the drum from its flat side to the opposite side? And what's the length of the flat side?

[mryy]

Inspired by MT10 (and MT17 & 18) I redesigned the master and slave levers. I made the master lever a little shorter and arranged it closer to the axle of the wheel. I extended the length of the slave lever with a train of connecting compartments. Two compartments nearest to its fulcrum are open to receive the yellow weights from the master lever (at 5:00). The remaining compartments can be loaded with as many weights as needed to achieve the desired power output. In this example I partially filled the compartments. A spring is incorporated at the slave's fulcrum to assist the 12:00 lift. Two sets of cords connect the levers together for the lift beginning at 12:00. A circular casing resembling a grindstone covers the master levers all around (on both sides of wheel) to trap the flying red weight at 2:00. Not drawn to accuracy. You like?


Select Quotes:

"Except for a small change in the external dimensions of the wheel for raising weights (or so-called "running wheel"), I have organized everything together in accordance with those structures of the previous machine which I had broken to pieces. These small changes occurred by chance and do not need to be defended. Around the firmly placed horizontal axis is a rotating disc (low or narrow cylinder) which resembles a grindstone. This disc can be called the principle piece of my machine. Accordingly, this wheel consists of an external wheel (or drum) for raising weights which is covered with stretched linen ... These parts are enclosed in a case and are coordinated with one another so that they not only never again reach an equilibrium (or point of rest) for themselves but incessantly seek with their admirably fast swing to move and drive on the axis of their vortices loads that are vertically applied from the outside and are proportional to the size of the housing ..." DT 20 Glenn Rouse (Al Bacon of Michigan)/Andrew Witter (Ted of Chicago nom de plumes) translation 1998 [description of Kassel Wheel]

"Now look Wagner, you claim to have devised a Wheel which has a divided axle. You claim my wheel is the same. Ask any of those who have groped inside my Wheel and grasped its axle and you will be assured that my axle is not like that. Rather it has many compartments and is pierced all over with various holes." AP 326 Collins

"If I were to place, next to a 12-Ell wheel, one of 6-Ells, then, if I wanted to, I could cause the smaller one to revolve with more force and useful power than the large one. I can make 2, or 3, or even more wheels all revolving on the same axis. Further, I make my machines in such a way that, big or small, I can make the resulting power small or big as I choose. I can get the power to a perfectly calculated degree, multiplied up even as much as fourfold." AP 340 Collins

"The rain drips down. Snow falls ... A great herd of fat, lazy, plump horses wanders aimlessly." AP Collins [description of yellow weights]

"Seen sideways or full-face it is as glorious as a peacock's tail." AP Collins

"The thing [weights] also, (from which one feeds) through intestine and marrow and bones [levers] goes;" AP Stewart

[Sam Peppiatt]

mryy, Great!! Here's the numbers: Drum ID 9.00", Roller OD 7.00", the flat is 5.00" long and @ .8" high. the height above 8.2". A drawing is badly needed, I could talk all day long and never make up for one-----------------------Sam

[Tarsier79]

Mryy. Do you understand the problems MT10 has by itself? Do you understand what compressing a spring will do to the levers and their movement?

There are two main directions to attack this problem. One is by solving mechanical issues, the other is by solving what has to happen.

[Fletcher]

I'm with you Tarsier, some things are impossible. I'm afraid this is one of them------------------------------Sam

Fair enough Sam, if that's what you think .. the irony of looking for a gravity-only solution with no energy input is not wasted on me.

[Sam Peppiatt]

Hi Fletcher,
I can't think of any way to do it. How can you hook a generator to the earth? Any way, it seams impossible to me---------------------Sam