Zeroing in on Bessler's wheel

[thx4]

Thanks Fletcher, to be followed with great interest. :)
A++

[johannesbender]

Fletcher try uploading to https://imgbb.com/ , then specify how long the image should be kept before deletion , or no deletion, then once uploaded you can choose something from the link options like :

Viewer link
https://ibb.co/SJ42FMP

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 [url]https://ibb.co/SJ42FMP[/url] 

BBCode full linked

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 [url=https://imgbb.com/][img]https://i.ibb.co/fQzbjy2/GIF-1-5-2023-10-50-48-AM.gif[/img][/url] 

BBCode Thumbnail linked

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 [url=https://ibb.co/SJ42FMP][img]https://i.ibb.co/SJ42FMP/GIF-1-5-2023-10-50-48-AM.gif[/img][/url] 

Just another option you have , I see mrvibrating used this one.

ETA , I think why some should be clicked to open , might be because , if the size goes over a certain size it becomes a performance issue to load them automatically

[Sam Peppiatt]

Fletcher, Here I thought making it out of Iron was difficult; new tricks? Not this old dog. I'm memorized by it. Waltcy's "Tri Star"; it kind of doubles down on gravity-------------Sam

[johannesbender]

Fletcher you can also use https://postimages.org/ to upload to , you can use the app here if you want to https://postimages.org/app.

For example i used the app to upload this gif :

screenshot_4.png

then copied the link and pasted it here :

screenshot_6.png

with this result:

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[url=https://postimages.org/][img]https://i.postimg.cc/YST5PVx4/GIF-1-5-2023-1-39-09-PM.gif[/img][/url]

[WaltzCee]

.. . .. .
Waltcy's "Tri Star""; it kind of doubles down on gravity-------------Sam

mais non.
non, non, non, Shammy!!
C'est ne pas Waltcy's "Tri Star.

Please don't albatross me.
I have my own ideas.

Thanking you in advance.

[Sam Peppiatt]

OK Waltcy, You shall forever remain blameless! However, I'm still going to call it a "Tri-Sar", with or with out your approval---------------Sam

[WaltzCee]

I do think it's cool, Shammy. The animations I've seen of dual star systems usually have a large and small star. The larger one is shedding light and energy in the path of the little star, feeding it.

It's beautiful.

I look at this Tri Star configuration as a distributed flywheel. There are 2 energies. First there is the energies of the 3 masses circling their common CoM.

Then the RKE of each star spinning, braiding their energies around the common CoM. Without doing the math, my sense of this flywheel is it's inertially stronger than an equivalent mass all spinning around a barry center.

I have a weird way of thinking about things.

Another way is it's a mechanical representation of 3 phase power. Balanced power that might be tapped into.

However, it's your baby. :). You're causing quite the discussion. Not too bad for an ugly ol' cuss what don't even know how to upload a pic.

[Sam Peppiatt]

Thanks for the kind words, Waltcy! I am old, eighty,(82 if you are counting), and ugly but, what can I do about it? The new stuff kind of passes you by like a freight train, I have to admit, I didn't run very fast to catch it-------------------------Sam

[Sam Peppiatt]

The Tri-Star drive. Trying to make it better with out screwing it up! I moved the 'flat' one inch to the right, for CW rotation and, added a leaf spring to cushion the impact of the roller; I think it helped. Have to do the other side to see if there is any improvement. Having a hard time forming the spring.

Fletcher, I'm really surprised! I thought you were dead set against this gravity only bull sh*t! However, your simulation is absolutely invaluable for, not only understanding it but, also for evaluating it, to find a way to make improvements---------------------Sam

[Fletcher]

Fletcher, I'm really surprised! I thought you were dead set against this gravity only bull sh*t!

However, your simulation is absolutely invaluable for, not only understanding it but, also for evaluating it, to find a way to make improvements---------------------Sam

Editing ..

AWESOME jb .. beauty .. that will make life easier all round. Thanks for your help and clear instructions mate.

Sam .. It's not about whether I'm dead set against or for gravity-only wheels .. it's about improving the analysis experience for everyone, so that we can learn and move on. And maybe with understanding the detail of why things are as they are improvements can be found as you say ?

Here is you original tri-roller design again. This time I copied the rpm and acceleration table and changed it to a graph output with a single plot for rpm (blue line). You can see the time tick by on the x axis and the black dot moving along the line as rpm goes up for 2 seconds (increasing rpm) then begins to reduce rpm down to zero. At the same time you can watch the System COM/COG icon below the axle and see it corresponds with rpm changes each side of the vertical below the axle.

The short of it is that the generic sim is given a 2 second CW push (fake force) start which then ceases. The wheel has gained momentum and RKE. The System COM hovers below the axle but is "dragged" a little (counter-torquing ; losing GPE). The result is the rpm increases from the push then steadily reduces down to zero. Then it does a shallow dip below the horizontal 0 RPM line and then oscillates above and below etc dampening down until the wheel stops at zero rpm. The TREND is clear in this sim ! It is dampening down and not accelerating. [Also the System COM will settle and stop at its position of least GPE (i.e. it can't fall any further).] The take-away is that the System COM/COG is basically stationary in ANY position the wheel is put in i.e. it is Balanced in any position (no torque tendencies because it can't lose anymore GPE) - the " COM dragging" is a result of frictions which rob the system of energy until all is used up and it stops dead.

Next I'll answer Walt's query from last night .. coffee break while you watch and get to grips with what the sim is showing ... It's important to note that the sim is saying it, not me. I'm only the messenger and analysis guy. My mind-sim told me the same thing fwiw.


28411 restaurants

[Sam Peppiatt]

Fletcher, Seams like the CoM should be lower, just looking at it. I mean I don't really know-------------------------Sam

[Fletcher]

Fletcher, Seams like the CoM should be lower, just looking at it. I mean I don't really know-------------------------Sam

Sam .. if you only consider the 3 rollers have mass (quick and dirty COM - q&d COM) then as I showed the other day - draw a line between any 2 rollers centers and find half way along that line - then draw another line from that mid point to the center of the remaining roller. Find the position on the new line 1/3rd distance up for the q&d COM.

However, if you want accuracy then you have to consider the masses and the mass distributions of all objects in the sim or drawing. And depending on those ratios the system COM/COG can move up and down a little e.g. the more mass the background disk has relative to the other objects the COM will be nearer the axle.

Usually it makes very little difference to anything in the final analysis, so q&d COM is fine for a visual representation. The sim works it all out for us automatically and is never wrong.

[Fletcher]

When I look at this one, Sam

re : "The tri-roller with Flat sections sim" (below).

it does look as if it will keep running.

When you push start it, Fletcher, does it accelerate?

When you watch the animation of the sim Walt watch closely the graph blue line of rpm over time. You can see the first roller hit the ring and give it a boost in acceleration and rpm. This happens every time a roller connects a ring.

Initially the wheel is given some starting out momentum and RKE from the temporary push force - then the first top roller impacts the ring and rpm increases - then the disk slows down to almost a stop, then the next roller rolls across and impacts the ring and the disk speeds up CW again for a while - the 3rd roller can't make it up and over the 'flat" angle because there is not enough torque to do so.

In short it accelerates and then decelerates then oscillates CW and CCW until frictions take away its energy/momentum an it comes to a stop where its system COM has its least GPE (the PQ / balanced / no torque position). You can watch the tops of the peaks in the graph rpm output to see the peaks rapidly declining until its a mill pond.

A bigger push start will continue the rotations longer with the same end result ateotd.

The TREND is what is important imo !


nearest cash point

[Sam Peppiatt]

It's so amazingly real! It's beyond my comprehension, how you can do that----------------------Sam

[Fletcher]

I seem to remember someone who dissed me and others at every opportunity about sims Sam ;7) Don't take me seriously lol.

Now you know why we like them so much - can build and analyse a wheel in a few hours usually. If interested start with something like the free Algodoo. The program I use is Working Model 2 Dimensions (WM2D) - every program has easy to follow tutorials - within a few days you are getting quite good with it. Then learn to post an attachment to a post. And as I did this morning how to capture and save an animation of my sim and thru "Postimage" (thankyou jb) paste it directly into the post so it isn't an attachment pe se.

FWIW .. Wubbly learnt the program and quickly advanced to what I would call expert level. He has some stunning sims on YT of B's. MT wheels, and great visual analysis and in-situ changing variables and inputs as the sims runs. His music choices are pretty good also lol.

We that use sims could fully follow and understand what he was doing and showing, and the TRENDS we were seeing, to see if there was any asymmetric acceleration to make them into potential runners etc. Bit harder for anybody else and took more effort to understand.

Pump complete !