Zeroing in on Bessler's wheel

[WaltzCee]

Fletcher,
What toy, if there is one, on the toys page, is a clue to a prime mover, or a clue to anything, for that matter? Also, how can you separate a prime mover, from being an OB wheel? Aren't the two, one and the same? I mean, how can you have one without the other----------------Sam

where is your prime mover in your design, Sam?
is gravity the prime mover?

I think any clue that relates to time is a good one.

good luck with your build.

[WaltzCee]

The problem with any gravity wheel ever built is they don't work, they don't turn. How to solve that problem?

There needs to be some mechanics, a mechanism, whose soul purpose is to turn the wheel. No other job, just turn the wheel.

Now we need some energy.

This is the job of the prime mover.

The interplay between the prime mover and the wheel mover makes the wheel go round.

How can one have one without the other?

impossible,
unless Newton was a liar.

[WaltzCee]

from wiki

Noether's theorem or Noether's first theorem states that every differentiable symmetry of the action of a physical system with conservative forces has a corresponding conservation law .[1] The theorem was proven by mathematician Emmy Noether in 1915

No matter how it's configured, some sym·me·try law if present initially is going to follow every design evolution no matter how much you change it.

It really doesn't matter what frame of reference you want to look at it either

[WaltzCee]

Has science and mathematicians painted perpetual motion into a corner? I don't think so.

Pseudo motion/energy might be an imaginary current, a physical model of reactive currents.

Pseudo accelerations. Balance out unnecessary or unwanted variables. Warp time.

The answer might seem science fiction until it's understood. Who knows when that will be?

There have been claims

[Fletcher]

Fletcher, If the flat section is up an inch from the bottom of the ring, it, the flat needs to be lowered an inch. So that the roller can roll to the right along the flat before it hits the side of the ring. For CW rotation. This way, the roller isn't forced to be lifted up.

The way it is now, because of the flat, it has to lift up about an inch, which causes a lot of back torque. If the flat could be lowered it would prevent any back torque.

What else can I say? The lower right side of the casing will be straight up and down. I.E., instead of curved, the way it is now. From 3:00 to about 6:00 the casing is in the shape of a square instead of round. I don't know how else to describe it--------------Sam

Here's my attempt Sam - I called the sim a Tear-Drop design which you will see why when you look at the animation of the sim.

The motor is turned OFF and it is still given a push start (CW torque), then I make the torque input to zero (no more push). The sim predicts it slowing down and reversing to settle at its position of least GPE. IOW's there is equal back-torque to forward-torque (i.e. no asymmetric CW directional torque surplus) and it is unable to accelerate under its own steam like a true runner would.

Added velocity vectors to the Rollers so you can see velocity changes on contacts etc.

ETA 1 : added the sim in attachments for those interested.

ETA 2 : Sam does your real-world build behave in a similar way to the generic sim ? If not what are the main differences ?


all night gas stations

[Sam Peppiatt]

Hi Fletcher.
Yes, a tear drop. I was going to say that. The power has been off all day, lot of rain and flooding, it must have screwed some thing up. I'm still working on the other drum. I have it in the lath so, with the power off didn't get any thing done today. I haven't been able to try it yet with the new change. So, I don't know yet, what it will be like. However, It should be well balanced now, does your sim agree to that?

I love your animation! I like to sit and watch it run; I can dream, right------------------------------Sam

[Fletcher]

time doesn't change, Sam



no matter how you slice it or dice it, unless you gear different powers to each other, gravity is conservative. Frame of reference shifting, or stretching or compressing.

Who knows

Time is invariant, they say. You need the up in a flash technology.

>> mv = ft (this is self-evident) - the equation drops out of reducing the Conservation Laws. Time is irrelevant and why scientists only consider the vertical height gained or lost for GPE (mgh) - the time or slope does not factor in GPE gained or lost, and KE gained or lost subsequently.

Therefore "up in a flash" does not change the vertical height component in anyway and may well be a B. red herring imo.

Fletcher, What toy, if there is one, on the toys page, is a clue to a prime mover, or a clue to anything, for that matter? Also, how can you separate a prime mover, from being an OB wheel? Aren't the two, one and the same? I mean, how can you have one without the other----------------Sam

where is your prime mover in your design, Sam?

is gravity the prime mover?

The problem with any gravity wheel ever built is they don't work, they don't turn. How to solve that problem?

There needs to be some mechanics, a mechanism, whose soul purpose is to turn the wheel. No other job, just turn the wheel.

Now we need some energy.

This is the job of the prime mover.

The interplay between the prime mover and the wheel mover makes the wheel go round.

How can one have one without the other?

impossible,
unless Newton was a liar.

No matter how it's configured, some sym·me·try law if present initially is going to follow every design evolution no matter how much you change it.

It really doesn't matter what frame of reference you want to look at it either

Has science and mathematicians painted perpetual motion into a corner? I don't think so.

Pseudo motion/energy might be an imaginary current, a physical model of reactive currents.

Pseudo accelerations. Balance out unnecessary or unwanted variables. Warp time.

The answer might seem science fiction until it's understood. Who knows when that will be?

There have been claims

For those pondering further on the relationship between a Prime Mover entity (mechanism/mechanics) and an ordinary conservative OOB wheel (conservative simple machine mechs) then perhaps MT20 can shed some light of the boundary between them.

No. 20 Here the previous levers work somewhat more peculiarly and raise up special weights and turn outward to the over balance. For this reason side A is always heavier, my friend supposed but I denied.

I then reminded him to harness the horse in front.

A cart must be pulled by a horse (after being HARNESSED to it), otherwise the cart goes nowhere !

Thankyou to ovyyus (Bill) and his website orffyre.com for the rendering of MT20.

...............................

[Sam Peppiatt]

Was that your question Waltcy?
I think now that the prime mover is the casings, (Zugge), they drive the rollers, and hopefully the rollers should drive the wheel. The prime movers must be the casings. It's going to go Waltcy, you have to have faith---------------------Sam

[Fletcher]

Hi Fletcher. ... It should be well balanced now, does your sim agree to that?

The sim says it has 3 positions where the system COM is at its lowest vertical position beneath the axle. And it will stop at either of these.

A push will get it turning so it has gained AM and RKE, then frictions bleed energy from the system and it slows down losing AM.

The positive and negative torques (when the system COM / COG is either side of vertical beneath the axle) are EQUAL Sam. They exactly cancel each other out.

The sim predicts there is no excess torque (excess weight; excess impetus; preponderance; superior motive force; etc etc) to accelerate the wheel, very sorry to say !

[Sam Peppiatt]

Hope fully it doesn't know that it can't work. The sim is great Fletcher, maybe it will go, I'll try it and see what happens. The flat came out perfect. It, the flat, gives the rollers freedom of motion, like a lose cannon on deck. Have you ever imagined any thing like this---------------Sam

[Leafy]

Confirmation of a torque when the roller hit the casing.

The spikes in disk RPM is shown in red.

So there is a torque when the roller hit the casing.

[Sam Peppiatt]

leafy, Yes, just not enough. The rollers have to hit harder to sustain rotation----------------------Sam

[Fletcher]

Confirmation of a torque when the roller hit the casing.

The spikes in disk RPM is shown in red.

So there is a torque when the roller hit the casing.

Yes, there is a CW torque when the roller hits the casing. But it is not enough combined torque to cause a system acceleration (i.e. all torques cancel out), imo.

Here is a shortened animation of the same sim - push started then push made to zero (coasting under its own power). This time I added "Contact Force" vectors (red arrows) to the Rollers. You can now look at the graph plot of wheel RPM (blue) and the changes in contact forces as they move into the contact zone (pressure points) etc and compare.

Conclusion 1 : Altho there is an increase in CW torques from a positive contact with the tear-drop ring the Roller is in fact dropping to a lower vertical height than previously i.e. it is losing GPE to gain KE and contact temporary force increase. This loss in height in turn needs to be recovered on the ascending side (counter/back-torques). All torque integrals balance out to zero. With energy loses the sim settles at 1 of 3 positions of least system GPE (balance position / PQ point / zero torques).

Conclusion 2 : This is the exact same problem that ALL conservative OOB wheels have ! i.e. no asymmetric torque capability in a closed path system. They need an energy source to create the excess-torque (surplus motive force / extra mobility factor) to make them self-moving and be able to meet energy losses, and, do external Work.

ETA : All bodies in the sim have Elasticity Factor set to 0.5 (range 0.0 to 1.0 (energy lossless bounce back)) - all bodies have static friction and dynamic (rolling) friction set to 0.3 (range 0.0 (no friction) to 1.0)


poem on unity in diversity in english

[Leafy]

The first spike measured 2.65

The second spike measured 2.55

The third spike measured 2.2

They should be all the same because the roller hit with the same GPE

So why are they get smaller each rotation?

[Leafy]

Conclusion: more torque can be obtained from the same GPE/ momentum.

Case closed.