Zeroing in on Bessler's wheel

[Fletcher]

How do you have torque (which causes rotation) when it is always balanced Sam ? i.e. the system COM / COG is directly below the axle.

fwiw .. A pendulum that hangs straight down is always balanced, and has no directional torque - because it is "balanced"..

>> I can not imagine what you see in your minds eye - perhaps someone else sees what you are getting at ?

[Sam Peppiatt]

Let me try this. Imagine a big box on a wagon with a heavy roller in the box and you gave it a shove down a steep ramp. If the wagon slowed down a little, the roller would roll foreword and hit the front of the box and speed it up a little. Anyway that's how it supposed to work-----------------Sam

[Fletcher]

These might have some familiarity in this context ..

[Sam Peppiatt]

So you mean, If his wheels failed, it should follow that mine will fail too? Or does it mean you don't see any difference between them? However, there are two things that are Different. I'll try to explain it again. The rollers are traveling at the rim velocity of the wheel and, additionally are being accelerated by the acceleration due to gravity, for a total of about six inches. They are now going a lot faster than the wheel. So when they hit the outer casing, they will speed the wheel up. Here's the best part, since the wheel is balanced, it doesn't take all that much to keep it rotating. You are probably right Fletcher, you always are. All you can see in it is piece of crap!!!!!!!! So what if it's a dead duck!

I think I had better leave it at that------------------------Sam

[Fletcher]

I mean familiarity Sam .. the balls run downhill faster than the wheel background is rotating - they collide with the wheel (D casing, whatever) and give it a nudge as momentum and energy is transferred.

Complete your build Sam and if it works as planned then great ! - if it doesn't work as planned then maybe some workaround will occur to someone worth investigating.

[WaltzCee]

>> mv = ft (this is self-evident) - the equation drops out of reducing the Conservation Laws. Time is irrelevant and why scientists only consider the vertical height gained or lost for GPE (mgh) - the time or slope does not factor in GPE gained or lost, and KE gained or lost subsequently.

Therefore "up in a flash" does not change the vertical height component in anyway and may well be a B. red herring imo.

Given 2 equal changes in vertical/height if the first takes all day while the 2nd takes 5 minutes, the later is more powerful.

Same energy yet more powerful. I think the gradient to drive the wheel is between 2 different levels of power.

Specifically, from a mechanical contrivance that continues moving no matter the rpm's. That motion is kenetic energy free to tap.

[johannesbender]

I cant see much progress for OB if there is no solving for the problems we know for a fact exist.

[WaltzCee]

I cant see much progress for OB if there is no solving for the problems we know for a fact exist.

The problem with any gravity wheel ever built is they don't work, they don't turn. How to solve that problem?

• There needs to be some mechanics, a mechanism, whose soul purpose is to turn the wheel. No other job, just turn the wheel.
  

Now we need some energy.

This is the job of the prime mover.

The interplay between the prime mover and the wheel mover makes the wheel go round.

How can one have one without the other?

impossible,
unless Newton was a liar.

I think the purpose of the OB in a wheel is to turn it I also think gravity provides that push Fletcher used in his SIM.

[WaltzCee]

. .. .. .
If you don't like what the sim is predicting then do a real-world build for comparison purposes and take it up with the 10,000 engineers, physicists, and programmers who built the kinematic sim software and beta tested it before release to the commercial market.

This is a great point. SIM software is an incredible human effort put together by some very smart folk graphically representing the real world.

It has flaws none the less an amazing tool.

[WaltzCee]

. .. .. .
Complete your build Sam and if it works as planned then great ! - if it doesn't work as planned then maybe some workaround will occur to someone worth investigating.

I mean something like Sam's design, Fletcher. It has engineering obstacles, yet the idea of a distributed flywheel is mechanically cool.

It seems evident there is power in the movement of the weight as it crashes into the casing.

If you have a one meter rod pivoting in its middle then pin a kilo at the end of the top then a kilo a cm up at the bottom, the weights will change places.

It will flip.

This idea (not original & possibly vacuous) is to smack either the top or bottom weight, there by unbalancing the system, causing it to flip.

rinse & repeat.

[Fletcher]

. .. .. .
Complete your build Sam and if it works as planned then great ! - if it doesn't work as planned then maybe some workaround will occur to someone worth investigating.

I mean something like Sam's design, Fletcher. It has engineering obstacles, yet the idea of a distributed flywheel is mechanically cool.

It seems evident there is power in the movement of the weight as it crashes into the casing.

If you have a one meter rod pivoting in its middle then pin a kilo at the end of the top then a kilo a cm up at the bottom, the weights will change places.

It will flip.

This idea (not original & possibly vacuous) is to smack either the top of bottom weight, there by unbalancing the system, causing it to flip.

rinse & repeat.

Draw it up Walt and I'll see what I can sim for you when I have the time.

BTW I did a big search today thru Wubbly's files and found his ring polygon scripter wbs file (not supported on this forum so can't post it). Saves an enormous amount of time building from scratch. For Sam's sims I just built a generic ring and sim etc. Now it's possible to quickly build one closer to his dimensions etc and be more accurate and faithful to his actual build.

Yes, there is power when the roller crashes into the ring etc. You can see it causes an acceleration and rise in wheel rpm as you might expect.

But so far in sim world no asymmetric torque to cause the wheel to accelerate its revolutions long term. It was suggested earlier in the thread that a workaround might be to add springs into the collision interface i.e. introduce elasticity.

In WM elasticity quality of bodies ranges from 0.0 (no elasticity) to 1.0 (full elasticity like a perfect spring). So Sam could try either a metal ring ID which has 0.95 elasticity in the sim i.e. almost a perfectly elastic collision like a very good spring, or conversely add a layer of sponge to "absorb" almost all the impact forces. B. did after-all use felt coverings at one time.

As for a flipping hammer you describe I know it would affect the system MOI in some ways - a sim would show what was likely to happen.

Where are all the Algodoo users leaping to the challenge ?! It's a reasonable approximation once you know its limits, and how to workaround them, just like any sim.

[WaltzCee]

Draw it up Walt and I'll see what I can sim for you when I have the time.

I think there's too much drawing, Fletcher. Something is necessary to hold the weights along their course keeping them from being pinned against the casing.

Then align the smacking of the casing into something smacking the wheel into a top heavy imbalance.

The final design objective would be to manage those forces, not letting them neutralize all the work they were intended to accomplish.

I think that final hurdle is insurmountable.

I do appreciate the offer.

[Sam Peppiatt]

I might be making some progress.
The tear drop / impact idea was a bust. A disaster! What can I say when I'm wrong, I'm wrong. Anyway, back to the flat. The flat didn't work but, was the right idea. It needs to be much longer and fit the curve of the casing. It will extend from about 12:30 down to about 5:30, (for CW rotation). This will keep the wheel OOB for a longer time. An interesting thing about it is; as the wheel rotates from 12:00 to 3:00 it is top heavy. From 3:00 down to 6:00 the wheel is bottom light. Of coarse, from 6:00 back up to 12:00, The wheel is balanced.

Anyway, will try it and see what happens-------------------------------Sam

[WaltzCee]

The final design objective would be to manage those forces, not letting them neutralize all the work they were intended to accomplish.

although they're fun to watch, those counter-tweerks can eat your lunch.

You doing ok, Mr Sam? Haven't heard a peep from you in awhile.

[Sam Peppiatt]

Hi Waltcy,
I'm in the prosses of making the above changes. I tried the impact idea. It seamed to do very little if anything. It was a step backwards. Which means OOB is the right way to go, just as you suggested. I realized that the problem with the 'flat' that, I started with, was; it was way too short. It was OOB but, only very briefly.

The idea is to make the flat, if you will, much longer for almost 180 degrees of rotation of the drum so, that the wheel will be OOB for nearly one half turn. This should make a big difference. Of course to make the flat / raised section that long, it has to follow the curve of the casing. I used a 12" length of spring steel 1 1/2" wide, .025" thick, to lift the roller up about 1/2 inch. This is for the roller to roll up on and off of, smoothly.

I'm just trying stuff Waltcy, I don't know any thing------------------------------Sam