Part Three is the Charm

[Fletcher]

B. stated in MT that there was something special about the stork's bill (SB).

What is so special about it when implemented in an OB type wheel?

Recurring problems for builders are getting the levers on the ascending side to lift up and over 12:00 and observing back rotation (due to spring compression, lever/weight movement, etc.).

Does the presence of the SB eliminate or mitigate these problems? Could this be what B. was indirectly addressing?

FWIW mryy .. I tend to think we all over-think what could be special behind SB's. They are just 'linear' levers that obey the Law of Levers and at the same time since they are levers used for doing Work they are also "Simple Machines". We can venture down the rabbit hole that they must have hidden powers that enables something extraordinary to happen in regards to Work Input verses Output, but in my experience that just isn't the case.

So what could B. be suggesting that's special behind them, if they are just prosaic simple machines ? It must be the action that they can physically perform imo and not any 'super power'.

B. shows in MT the two common such actions which can be seen in the TP (lhs figure E) and MT-54 (also figure E) .. both extend the SB by application of a force.

The difference is that in the TP the SB extends with pressure on the handles - the important differentiation imo being that all the pivots in the arrangement move forward with the extension and retract with compression. Whilst in MT-54 a main pivot/fulcrum is anchored and the SB extends in both directions from that fulcrum. Much like and X or <x> can be extended or compressed relative to this anchor pivot.

Following my line of deduction (optional) a force applied in one direction returns a force applied in the opposite direction i.e. a linear force direction change ability is it's 'special' physical and mechanical quality; perhaps an important actor in a multi-cast production that work together to generate an extraordinary result foretold in the TP comments, imo.

[mryy]

I think you may have misread me. I wasn't alluding to any hidden or super powers of the SB. I was referencing B.'s notes of MT41:

"No. 41 This is yet another stork's-bill model. It is not necessary first to explain the letters. There is only this to mention: the present horizontal application of the stork's bills is always better than the machine with the vertical application, which constantly has more friction. I can assure the reader that there is something special behind the stork's bills. Whoever knows how to construct them will note that the figures sketched here are not exactly the correct artistic application."

I thought it curious in MT41 that the levers C are turning the two small lateral wheels by the rims. Think hoop and stick game. Ofc we know how SB work (extension, retraction) as can be seen in MT41, MT54 and some other MTs. You state "a linear force direction change ability is it's 'special' physical and mechanical quality." I see nothing special about that for it is the property of this type of simple machine. The TP note says that an extraordinary result occurs when the games are applied *differently*. I feel the message is that there needs to be a departure from the usual manifestations of the SB to achieve PM.

Furthermore B. states seemingly cryptically in MT41, "I can assure the reader that there is something special behind the stork's bills." The term "behind" suggests to me to look beyond the SB's apparent features. How to arrive at this special-ness might just entail a different approach to building and mounting the SB?

P.S. I try really hard -- not always successfully -- to fall into the hole no more and no less than 3 times a day. Hoping to keep that charm coming. ;)

[Fletcher]

P.S. I try really hard -- not always successfully -- to fall into the hole no more and no less than 3 times a day. Hoping to keep that charm coming. ;)

Goes with the territory .. B. was a bit of a wordsmith and crafty setter of mind traps imo lol. The job is to somehow sort the wheat from the chaff and his distractions.

I thought it curious in MT41 that the levers C are turning the two small lateral wheels by the rims. Think hoop and stick game.

Ofc we know how SB work (extension, retraction) as can be seen in MT41, MT54 and some other MTs. You state "a linear force direction change ability is it's 'special' physical and mechanical quality." I see nothing special about that for it is the property of this type of simple machine. That's what I'm saying .. not special in and of itself but how it plays nicely with others .. if you'd included the rest of my quote it would have said "; perhaps an important actor in a multi-cast production that work together to generate an extraordinary result foretold in the TP comments, imo." which qualifies that statement to something bigger than itself.

The TP note says that an extraordinary result occurs when the games are applied *differently*. I feel the message is that there needs to be a departure from the usual manifestations of the SB to achieve PM. Hmmmm .. I think a known SB action coupled to other mechanics results in an extraordinary outcome, imo. All interpretations are food for thought.

Furthermore B. states seemingly cryptically in MT41, "I can assure the reader that there is something special behind the stork's bills." The term "behind" suggests to me to look beyond the SB's apparent features. How to arrive at this special-ness might just entail a different approach to building and mounting the SB? Maybe !

Always enjoy your considered opinion.

fwiw the number of SB segments are drawn incorrectly top and bottom in MT41 - it's not like he didn't have time to correct them. They are connected by ropes thru pulleys to pull the weights up etc

[Tarsier79]

The funny thing about MT41 is the SB is not required at all. All it does here is add friction and complicate the build. The 3x distance is the usual trade off....Just multiply the weight x3 and have it go 1/3 the distance, connect the rope directly to the lever. (Or other simple leverage mods.)

[johannesbender]

IMO , it is possible that the SBs that connect to the ropes , go one behind the other , if i look at the two holes also (highlighted in purple) it seems to imply that the vertical bars can be located either to the front or to the back also , or perhaps its just the SBs that is arranged one behind the other.

ETA: come to think about it , the rope lengths are also odd.

[mryy]

IMO , it is possible that the SBs that connect to the ropes , go one behind the other , if i look at the two holes also (highlighted in purple) it seems to imply that the vertical bars can be located either to the front or to the back also , or perhaps its just the SBs that is arranged one behind the other.

ETA: come to think about it , the rope lengths are also odd.

JB do you have the MT drawings in their original representation? I noticed that the "1" of "41" looks like an upward arrow (or even an SB with handles like in the Toys Page).

[mryy]

A tidbit here. In the AP poem there is a metaphor about a shotgun. I uploaded an 18th century German shotgun model. If B. is alluding to the levers, then they must be of an appreciable length.

[Tarsier79]

John Collins has his books available, one of which has MT and the translation side by side.
https://johncollinsnews.blogspot.com/p/ ... raphy.html

The originals are here:
https://orka.bibliothek.uni-kassel.de/v ... /LOG_0063/

[agor95]

A driver drives. A runner runs.
The seer sees. The buyer buys.
The rain drips down. Snow falls;
The shotgun shoots. The bow twangs;

[johannesbender]

IMO , it is possible that the SBs that connect to the ropes , go one behind the other , if i look at the two holes also (highlighted in purple) it seems to imply that the vertical bars can be located either to the front or to the back also , or perhaps its just the SBs that is arranged one behind the other.

ETA: come to think about it , the rope lengths are also odd.

JB do you have the MT drawings in their original representation? I noticed that the "1" of "41" looks like an upward arrow (or even an SB with handles like in the Toys Page).

mryy ,yes follow Tarsiers link if you want all the documents , or follow this link for only machine tractate https://orka.bibliothek.uni-kassel.de/v ... /LOG_0000/ , the then click Cite and reuse ,manuscript then pdf , to download a full pdf version .

[mryy]

Thanks gentlemen for the links. Very nice.

[Fletcher]

The funny thing about MT41 is the SB is not required at all. All it does here is add friction and complicate the build. The 3x distance is the usual trade off....Just multiply the weight x3 and have it go 1/3 the distance, connect the rope directly to the lever. (Or other simple leverage mods.)

Very astute, well presented and accurate observations Tarsier .. There is no avoiding them ..

Begs the question we must all think about from time to time - as you say why were the SB's (with wrong numbers of segments) included at all in this design ? Especially when coupled with the cryptic comments of MT41 ..

OK .. for perhaps moving lighter weights closer to the axle via the SB's would change the wheel MOI and give higher RPM I guess, but hardly a show stopper if not there when you consider the added complexity involved.

Allowing for the vagaries of translation "something special behind" the SB .. not something special "about" the SB, but "behind" the SB. Suggesting to me at least that they are the conductor to an orchestra to change my metaphors.

Then we have jb's points that the top SB's could overlap which is not shown and perhaps rope lengths don't stack up etc. B. says it is not the right artistic application, possibly meaning number of SB's .. or .. geometric dimensions when extended or compressed .. or both ?


This (MT41) was to only highlight the importance of SB's in his mechanical runner solution, imo ! B. created so many artificial reasons to dwell and linger on this MT so you gotta ask why and for what importance ?

And it is why I think it is the linear force direction change ability that is the key to what is special 'behind' them, also imo. He does use them in these redundant SB's of MT41 after-all. There may be other valid expectations about what behind SB's but they have a lesser ranking for me.

[johannesbender]

I agree with all the points Fletcher and Tarsier made , There is an indication that "something" is to be known about it in some way , its inclusion in the TP cannot be ignored .

[Leafy]

What we want for others is what we want for ourselves.

Tell them you love them.

[mryy]

Breaktime fun for hardworking Mobilists: Picture Puzzle! Can you find an object and match it to a B. clue? Designed to stimulate Imagination. Really hope you enjoy. I really do ...