Part Three is the Charm

[Fletcher]

Very good mryy *grin* ..

You forgot to include what I consider one of the most important "clues" from AP ..

John Collins AP Chapter XLVI Pg 296

B. says .. "Should anyone wish to speculate about the truth, let him just ponder on the rich pageantry of words which I now cause to
shower down upon him!"

"The flail would rather be with the thresher than with the scholar"

[Fletcher]

I agree with all the points Fletcher and Tarsier made , There is an indication that "something" is to be known about it (SB) in some way , its inclusion in the TP cannot be ignored .

I believe B. doubled down on the SB message later in MT jb ..

Storks-bill is many times mentioned in the body of MT in comments associated with various illustrations - by my count 12 times plus 1 time called "student forceps" => total 13 (religious significance).

As we all know the SB illustration features prominently in the Toy's Page. It can't be missed, let alone the intrigue of MT41 we have been discussing.


Here's where I think B. doubled down .. a curiosity perhaps, or a coincidence, or just wishful thinking on my behalf ? .. I don't think so.


On achieving success with a runner B. began calling himself Orffyre, sometimes Latinized to Orffyreum and Orffyreus. It is speculated that he used Rot13 cipher to change BESSLER to ORFFYRE via transposition across a 26 letter alphabet wheel. It must have been the 26 letter alphabet because the old German alphabet had 24 letters and he couldn't get Orffyre from it.

At around the same time he formally changed his birth name of Elias Bessler by including 2 more forenames ..

It became Johann Ernst Elias Bessler. So his initials previously were E B and became J E E B.

** Remembering this all happened when he was about 32 years old (circa 1712) and well before 1733 when he took out pages from MT and likely included the TP substitute.**

Why include 2 more names ? I don't know other than some sort of rudimentary provenance claim perhaps to be associated with his longer initials.

J E E B .. using Rot13 we get ..

W R R O .. doesn't mean too much to me except the R R's remind me of his later extravagant signature regarding the Rath and oRffyreus (ROR).

10 5 5 15 .. sums to 35 .. doesn't prompt anything to me as MT35 is non-remarkable imo.

X V V O .. transposition to Roman Numerals n.b. there is no zero in Roman Numerals.

X V V with O perhaps representing a circle or wheel.

X V V .. can these be re-combined to perhaps represent something important in his mechanical solution (re provenance link) ?

Question .. Where have I seen that before ? Ans .. Matth XV.V.16 "And are ye yet without understanding?"

... We know creuz / cross was important to him and that could be represented by the X (AP has a multitude of x's mainly at ends of lines of prose)

But what of all of X V V ?

I believe B. pointed with this transformation to a particular SB arrangement as a form of provenance, and doubled down later in MT.


<x> or aligned vertically instead of horizontally.


Just my opinions about most curious things and circumstances as I see them.

[mryy]

Very good mryy *grin* ..

You forgot to include what I consider one of the most important "clues" from AP ..

John Collins AP Chapter XLVI Pg 296

B. says .. "Should anyone wish to speculate about the truth, let him just ponder on the rich pageantry of words which I now cause to
shower down upon him!"

"The flail would rather be with the thresher than with the scholar"

Oh yes the flail. It's long and swings down forcefully. Nice observation. I admit I was focused on the metaphors in Agor's earlier post.

I think the AP poem was describing a bi-directional wheel. So not every metaphor will apply to a one-directional. B. did say the two wheels were based on "quite different principles". In spite of this they share similarities such as the presence of long levers I believe.

[johannesbender]

I agree with all the points Fletcher and Tarsier made , There is an indication that "something" is to be known about it (SB) in some way , its inclusion in the TP cannot be ignored .

I believe B. doubled down on the SB message later in MT jb ..

Storks-bill is many times mentioned in the body of MT in comments associated with various illustrations - by my count 12 times plus 1 time called "student forceps" => total 13 (religious significance).

As we all know the SB illustration features prominently in the Toy's Page. It can't be missed, let alone the intrigue of MT41 we have been discussing.


Here's where I think B. doubled down .. a curiosity perhaps, or a coincidence, or just wishful thinking on my behalf ? .. I don't think so.


On achieving success with a runner B. began calling himself Orffyre, sometimes Latinized to Orffyreum and Orffyreus. It is speculated that he used Rot13 cipher to change BESSLER to ORFFYRE via transposition across a 26 letter alphabet wheel. It must have been the 26 letter alphabet because the old German alphabet had 24 letters and he couldn't get Orffyre from it.

At around the same time he formally changed his birth name of Elias Bessler by including 2 more forenames ..

It became Johann Ernst Elias Bessler. So his initials previously were E B and became J E E B.

** Remembering this all happened when he was about 32 years old (circa 1712) and well before 1733 when he took out pages from MT and likely included the TP substitute.**

Why include 2 more names ? I don't know other than some sort of rudimentary provenance claim perhaps to be associated with his longer initials.

J E E B .. using Rot13 we get ..

W R R O .. doesn't mean too much to me except the R R's remind me of his later extravagant signature regarding the Rath and oRffyreus (ROR).

10 5 5 15 .. sums to 35 .. doesn't prompt anything to me as MT35 is non-remarkable imo.

X V V O .. transposition to Roman Numerals n.b. there is no zero in Roman Numerals.

X V V with O perhaps representing a circle or wheel.

X V V .. can these be re-combined to perhaps represent something important in his mechanical solution (re provenance link) ?

Question .. Where have I seen that before ? Ans .. Matth XV.V.16 "And are ye yet without understanding?"

... We know creuz / cross was important to him and that could be represented by the X (AP has a multitude of x's mainly at ends of lines of prose)

But what of all of X V V ?

I believe B. pointed with this transformation to a particular SB arrangement as a form of provenance, and doubled down later in MT.


<x> or aligned vertically instead of horizontally.


Just my opinions about most curious things and circumstances as I see them.

Although I am not one for bringing numbers in to the scheme of things anymore , I cannot really fault your reasoning Fletcher , what strikes me odd is we can track the SB throughout MT , and then perhaps the coded pointers as you indicate , and then when we reach the landing page TP , suddenly we are faced with other elements too ,which seems like they weren't handled previously in MT or coded pointers like the SB's were.

[Fletcher]

Although I am not one for bringing numbers in to the scheme of things anymore , I cannot really fault your reasoning Fletcher ,

what strikes me odd is we can track the SB throughout MT , and then perhaps the coded pointers as you indicate ,

I'm not one for placing great reliance on codes and ciphers either jb (no particular talent or patience for it - I nibble at the edges) .. however a bona-fide useful code must be predictable and accurate in all circumstances, once you have the 'key' .. I tend to believe that B. meant his codes and ciphers to be understood eventually. How we were to find that key and apply it is subjective, until it is not subjective any longer, by establishing a repeatable pattern of extracting cogent information, imo.

In this case I used a combination of deduction from the TP to a mechanism that I think will be viable, and then looked for code interpretation that seems logical and supports that mechanism. Back-to-front from a purists pov and Director of the FBI would turn in his grave but some ducks do appear imo to line up quite well for me at this time from this approach.

Yes, MT wasn't published or for general consumption yet we can easily track the SB thru it because he rings its bell loud and clear. The reader (whenever that was supposed to be) was not meant to let it slip by unnoticed, and he made sure of that. The majority of the codes (some in MT without doubt but mainly in AP and DT were in public documents that Masons etc would or could read and would have a head-start over others - he didn't want it to be too easy and be broken in the first week, or year, or decade, or century as it turns out. So I treat the codes and ciphers in his published works as more a marketing gimmick which if ever broken (never to unlikely) would point solidly to his mechanisms in retrospect, imo.

and then when we reach the landing page TP ,

Yes, all roads lead to Rome, the Toy's Page it seems. As applies to MT for sure. So in MT we get a progression of heads ups and bell-ringing on SB's and then we wind up at the TP where, guess what, there is at least one SB in plain sight.

suddenly we are faced with other elements too ,

which seems like they weren't handled previously in MT or coded pointers like the SB's were.

Yes, we are. There is the very obvious 'boxy sectioned' SB in full glory on the left of the page. And many other items on that page could also be interpreted as variations (or parts) of common garden SB's, imo. Certainly the basic open and closing actions of items C and D (hammermen toys) for example which command center stage and can be hardly missed. The only element that doesn't really fit the SB family theme is the spinning top with rope missing, bottom of page, and later drawn in it seems. The right hand side real-estate is proudly occupied by items A and B with A having a somewhat recognizable and familiar 'boxy' shape to it also, imo.

So my short answer is, to .. "which seems like they weren't handled previously in MT or coded pointers like the SB's were", is by my deduction they are in essence part of the same SB family thus not warranting in his mind a separate treatment, because they were already covered in the 'generic' SB 'push', imo. IOW's, if not treated at all were already covered logic.

[johannesbender]

IMO , the basic linkage for the hammermen toys and the SB is the parallelogram linkage , it is also the basic linkage for the common RB , I guess you could also interpret the JL as the parallelogram linkage , however I feel what ties the SB and JL ultimately together via commonality would be that they are chains of the same things(links) ,and the hammermen could be seen as separate links of such a chain , the spinning top is out of place for sure.

If I were to be very imaginative and reach for something out of thin air , I would say the portrait with the books next to each other and the toppled over book, makes me think of the domino chain reaction .

[eccentrically1]

IMO , the basic linkage for the hammermen toys and the SB is the parallelogram linkage

A storkbill is a parellelogram linkage? I thought it was just a compound lever.

[johannesbender]

Well to put it in to other words a four bar linkage as the base form which is repeated along its length , a SB is a series of them connected together , and if you want you can dilute the four bar down to levers which are connected together , patato potato

[Fletcher]

Bit of a flap on here since Friday lads (still on-going) - major flooding event (biblical comes to mind) and local disaster declared. Tonight to get thru but already started the clean-up and got away lightly compared to some less fortunate.


I'll come back to your last interesting posts jb after I've cleared the decks a bit here at home. >> In the mean time something further to ponder in relation to my J E E B deductions ..

In this case I used a combination of deduction from the TP to a mechanism that I think will be viable, and then looked for code interpretation that seems logical and supports that mechanism. Back-to-front from a purists pov and the Director of the FBI would turn in his grave but some ducks do appear imo to line up quite well for me at this time from this approach.

A short followup to what I wrote earlier about the J E E B connection as I see it .. I had deduced it transposed to X V V and a 0 representing a circle or wheel.

Part of that deduction process was also drawn from a potential reinforcement within the TP itself ..


** I believe it was Oystein who first pointed the following out. **


Item / Toy A could be interpreted as a series of vertical Roman Numeral 1's (I's) and 2's (II's) i.e. 5 x I and 5 x II .. Add them together and you get 15

>> which is X V ..

Plus Item / Toy E could be seen as a further V ..

Thus X V V can be found within the TP ..


And just for good measure B. adds the last Item / Toy and labels it >> 5. children's games etc etc. Even tho it is obvious that there are 6 Items / Toys where C and D appear the same type of Toy, therefore to make 5 Children's games they should be counted as 1 type of Toy presumably.

This was a strong potential connection for me that the Roman Numeral approach could be the right "key" in this instance, given that B. changed his initials so early in his life and "Latinized" his Orffyre pseudonym.

ETA : and his penchant for chronograms etc.

...............

[johannesbender]

Very interesting stuff Fletcher , to get new things to look at I just grab some stuff I see somewhere in B's work that could fit somehow haha , if I would go the code route again and try and find stuff there, I might get lost and never surface from that again :).

Bad to hear about the flooding hope everything works out , that is not a situation anyone wants to be in.

Perhaps the roman numeral thing would dig deeper than what has already been observed .

[Fletcher]

Will know in the morning if we escaped the worst of it, or not jb - power still on for the moment.

...............

Connections ? !

[John Collins]

See my web site at http://www.theorffyreuscode.com/html/the_logo.html for more details

JC

[Oystein]

On achieving success with a runner B. began calling himself Orffyre, sometimes Latinized to Orffyreum and Orffyreus. It is speculated that he used Rot13 cipher to change BESSLER to ORFFYRE via transposition across a 26 letter alphabet wheel. It must have been the 26 letter alphabet because the old German alphabet had 24 letters and he couldn't get Orffyre from it.
Just my opinions about most curious things and circumstances as I see them.

Hello again Fletcher. Long time.. How are you?

Browsing through latest posts, I noticed something.. you may call it "nitpicking", but as I was preparing for making some new posts, I found it nice to start out by pointing out the following again..

By the way, BESSLER also becomes ORFFYRE applying the ROT 12/24 (ROT-12 in a 24 letter alphabet).

You say (or mention that others speculate) that he used ROT13.. Obviously he did not. As has been proven by the usage of a "ROT12/24" code in AP. Among other things AP contains a fully Cæsar ciphered quote or sentence, that can only be correctly deciphered using ROT-12/24. Then numbering in his machine drawings also proves that he goes from "i" to "k thus "skips "j" when it comes to numbering. Therefor the letter k equals 10 etc. Sadly the modern online decoders rarely (not to my knowledge) contains a ROT-12/24 menu.. But it can also be found in old cipher wheels, numbering in books and in chronograms etc..

I think that the official use of a 26 letters alphabet was fully introduced in school etc. in the middle of the 1700s. And I don't think grown ups would change method and tradition in communication with other older and high ranked people anyway. The tradition of using the 24 letter alphabet (where i = j and u=v) had been a tradition in Europe for many centuries. At first glance it doesn't seem so important, but it will indeed show to be important. Of course we also remember that Bessler changed between U and V, found on the last page of AP. Bessler writes U as V to get the chronogram to become "1717" by Roman numerals etc. (ROT 12/24 where j=i and u=V) can also be found in chronograms in well known publications from the greatest artists, poets, religious and Rosicrucian writing through the 15-16 and early 1700s

I am sure you knew this Fletcher, but I found this to be the correct place to repeat it for all readers of the forum. Also good timing before I make new post applying this particular methods/knowledge.

Best
Oystein

[johannesbender]

I have to mention , what i also find odd about the TP depiction of a JL is that it seems to only indicate the connection system (the manner of joints or links) and not the block that usually is connected through that connection system , perhaps he left the blocks out because they weren't the what he was trying to show.

[Oystein]

I agree.

And as I have mentioned before, I think that one of the functions ( Not the mechanical physical Jacobs Ladder) he points us to, is that this can also be viewed as "stacked Roman Numerals".

Adding up to a total of 15.

Best
Oystein