Part Three is the Charm

[johannesbender]

Well the Caesar Shift was not a complicated or hard to decode cipher , and was pretty well known so no one who really wants to hide something would consider using it , so I suspect since he knew it was easily recognized and decoded ,like a mere curiosity , he decided to use it in some ways , but if there is any real cipher or code it would be hidden away and not so obvious and easy as a Caesar Shift , but ,usually people who want to indicate the use of a cipher or code would show something easily grasped that gives a hint or information needed towards discovering and decoding the real cipher or code.

I used to part of cipher breaking group on the internet so I'm not really new to it but I'm not really in to it anymore.

[Oystein]

Another thing that can be mentioned about this "Toypage", is that the Toy (scissor jack) on the left side, is or has been rapidly raising upwards against gravity, from bottom to top, in one move. While the right side has a Jacobs ladder toy that works from a "train" falling with gravity. Using only bands/belts and square objects/weights..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwFXVU1nTJo&t=31s

Vague thoughts and pondering:

I think the Toypage could be viewed as the left side of the page is the ascending side of the wheel, and the right side is the function of the descending wheel. Then the "Spinning top" (as the only rotating object,) should be viewed as the axle.

So we can at least see hammers lowered/raised above the axle, falling "weights" in a "train configuration" in the Jacobs Ladder, belts/bands/ribbons (in the jacobs ladder), Hammers, parallel levers that opens and close and scissors..

Raising side has one "weight"/arrow going from bottom/axle to top at a time (scissor jack), while the falling side (right) has a train of weights..(Jacobs ladder).

[johannesbender]

Then we also have the way he has drawn how the "joints" function , since it appears that there aren't blocks but only "joints" , he seem to have drawn alternating joints to the left and right sides of the side view , imo it is likely possible that he did that to indicate how the joints allow blocks to fall left and right "swapping places" , of course I could be wrong I'm just weighing in on thoughts .

https://youtu.be/cVf9yR7ikd4

[Fletcher]

On achieving success with a runner B. began calling himself Orffyre, sometimes Latinized to Orffyreum and Orffyreus. It is speculated that he used Rot13 cipher to change BESSLER to ORFFYRE via transposition across a 26 letter alphabet wheel. It must have been the 26 letter alphabet because the old German alphabet had 24 letters and he couldn't get Orffyre from it.

Just my opinions about most curious things and circumstances as I see them.

Hello again Fletcher. Long time.. How are you?

How am I ? In my Prime Oystein, in my Prime, lol. It has been a while since we were all together, if not always on the same page ;7)

Browsing through latest posts, I noticed something.. you may call it "nitpicking", but as I was preparing for making some new posts, I found it nice to start out by pointing out the following again..

By the way, BESSLER also becomes ORFFYRE applying the ROT 12/24 (ROT-12 in a 24 letter alphabet).

Quite so Oystein, no doubt about it. I'll explain my apparent error shortly. Also looking forward to your new posts as always.

You say (or mention that others speculate) that he used ROT13.. Obviously he did not. As has been proven by the usage of a "ROT12/24" code in AP. Among other things AP contains a fully Caesar ciphered quote or sentence, that can only be correctly deciphered using ROT-12/24. Then numbering in his machine drawings also proves that he goes from "i" to "k thus "skips "j" when it comes to numbering. Therefore the letter k equals 10 etc. Sadly the modern online decoders rarely (not to my knowledge) contains a ROT-12/24 menu.. But it can also be found in old cipher wheels, numbering in books and in chronograms etc..

I think that the official use of a 26 letters alphabet was fully introduced in school etc. in the middle of the 1700s. And I don't think grown ups would change method and tradition in communication with other older and high ranked people anyway. The tradition of using the 24 letter alphabet (where i = j and u=v) had been a tradition in Europe for many centuries. At first glance it doesn't seem so important, but it will indeed show to be important. Of course we also remember that Bessler changed between U and V, found on the last page of AP. Bessler writes U as V to get the chronogram to become "1717" by Roman numerals etc. (ROT 12/24 where j=i and u=V) can also be found in chronograms in well known publications from the greatest artists, poets, religious and Rosicrucian writing through the 15-16 and early 1700s

I am sure you knew this Fletcher, but I found this to be the correct place to repeat it for all readers of the forum. Also good timing before I make new post applying this particular methods/knowledge.

Best
Oystein

Absolutely no offense or nitpicking taken Oystein, yours and Johns input to the conversation is always welcomed and appreciated.

First, here is the link to Oystein's website .. https://orffyreuscodes.com/orffyreus-name-conversion .. well worth a good and thorough read and understanding.

Second, here is the links to John's website also well worth a read and a good hard think about ..

http://www.theorffyreuscode.com/html/the_logo.html

http://www.theorffyreuscode.com/html/be ... tials.html

I haven't been to both of your sites for some time so it was a timely refresher. You both are probably the eminent decoders amongst us with the most experience (dax could probably sit at that table).


Anyhoo .. as you say Oystein .. we can get to Orffyre from both the Rot12 and Rot13 cipher. When I made the comment about it must be Rot13 I was expecting it to be challenged by someone so I'm glad you guys called in to do that and join the conversation.

Yes, I am well aware that AP and DT etc uses the old German 24 letter alphabet. And so does the MT lettering as far as I can tell. And as you both will point out K becomes the 10th letter (n.b. and opposite it is X). Either Rot system gives us J E E B => W R R O and not X V V O (directly) as I speculated upon. John says convincingly that W is VV (deduced from B's. writing style IINM) which is alluding to the number 55. So is the V V for R R of W R R O and that could indicate a reinforcement of the importance of the number 55 etc. In support of that we have the Roman Numerals under his flamboyant signature DMMp(P)M adding to 55.

We also strongly suspect that we get 1717 the year of AP's publication from Rot12 .. and in chronograms etc. e.g. the inscription directly under the Mathh XV.v.16 "are ye yet without understanding" AP wheel, known in John's site as the AP Chronogram. It is all very convincing that he used Rot12 in the main.

Why do I think J E E B was thru Rot13 I hear you asking ?

Because he could have been setting a trap to fall in to. Rot12 was well known and used.

He changed his name in his early 30's, by adding the forenames Johann and Ernst. Johann being the new first name, not Ivan or Igor etc. He chose a name staring with a J. How can I be sure that was deliberate ? See the attachment below from your site Oystein n.b. it is hard to find original signatures from B. that have his first names but I think we don't dispute it was Johann.

In Rot13 J is the 10th letter and also gives us W by transposition - in Rot12 i/j is the 9th letter and also gives us W. It seems somewhat deliberate to me that he chose the name Johann with a J, and that J is the 10th letter of Rot13 and the 9th letter in Rot12.

I digress .. my hypothesis is that J E E B actually is to be substituted with Roman Numerals, like elsewhere pointed out in his publication and chronograms etc.

Using Rot12 i/j 9th letter doesn't help that transformation IINM. n.b. 9 is IX .. but I think it is X V V and 0 for the wheel. Because an X can represent both a Cross "+" (of many crosses can make it turn faster fame) and a part of a Storks-Bill, imo.

And the "are yet yet without understanding" quote from Matth XV.v.16 as a secondary pointer perhaps.

ETA : As far as I'm aware MT does not contain any j's but does have i's.

Anyways fwiw .. for the moment I'm sticking to my Roman Numeral connection to JEEB in regards to my hypothetical Toy's Page Prime Mover mechanisms evolutionary tale. It's a better fit and of course I'm unashamedly unbiased ;7)

Best to all and looking forward to your posts ..

[Fletcher]

IMO , the basic linkage for the hammermen toys and the SB is the parallelogram linkage , it is also the basic linkage for the common RB , I guess you could also interpret the jacobs ladder (JL) as the parallelogram linkage , however I feel what ties the SB and JL ultimately together via commonality would be that they are chains of the same things (links) , and the hammermen could be seen as separate links of such a chain , the spinning top is out of place for sure.

If I were to be very imaginative and reach for something out of thin air , I would say the portrait with the books next to each other and the toppled over book, makes me think of the domino chain reaction.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

To ECC1 .. Well to put it in to other words a four bar linkage as the base form which is repeated along its length , a SB is a series of them connected together , and if you want you can dilute the four bar down to levers which are connected together , patato potato

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I have to mention , what i also find odd about the TP depiction of a JL is that it seems to only indicate the connection system (the manner of joints or links) and not the block that usually is connected through that connection system , perhaps he left the blocks out because they weren't the what he was trying to show.

I agree.

And as I have mentioned before, I think that one of the functions (Not the mechanical physical Jacobs Ladder) he points us to, is that this can also be viewed as "stacked Roman Numerals".

Adding up to a total of 15.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Another thing that can be mentioned about this "Toypage", is that the Toy (scissor jack) on the left side, is or has been rapidly raising upwards against gravity, from bottom to top, in one move. While the right side has a Jacobs ladder toy that works from a "train" falling with gravity. Using only bands/belts and square objects/weights..

Vague thoughts and pondering:

I think the Toypage could be viewed as the left side of the page is the ascending side of the wheel, and the right side is the function of the descending wheel. Then the "Spinning top" (as the only rotating object,) should be viewed as the axle.

So we can at least see hammers lowered/raised above the axle, falling "weights" in a "train configuration" in the Jacobs Ladder, belts/bands/ribbons (in the jacobs ladder), Hammers, parallel levers that opens and close and scissors..

Raising side has one "weight"/arrow going from bottom/axle to top at a time (scissor jack), while the falling side (right) has a train of weights..(Jacobs ladder).

Then we also have the way he has drawn how the "joints" function , since it appears that there aren't blocks but only "joints" , he seem to have drawn alternating joints to the left and right sides of the side view , imo it is likely possible that he did that to indicate how the joints allow blocks to fall left and right "swapping places" , of course I could be wrong I'm just weighing in on thoughts .

Hi again fellas .. all calm here for the moment and grabbing some quiet ..

I was going to add to your various astute comments but you have detailed them out in your follow-ups nicely.

Basically I was going to explain that my geared Ramelli Balance plus OOB chain sim and mock-up builds (in my Excess Torque thread) came directly from inspiration gleaned from the Toys Page (TP).

Like you reasoned jb the 'push - pull' hammermen toys C and D resemble a Roberval Balance (RB) arrangement in many ways, made of parallelograms. But a fixed vertical pivot RB is difficult to make work in a rotating sim environment so I defaulted to the Ramelli which was much easier and predated both the RB and B. Next I looked long and hard at items / toys A and B which appeared to show chain like structures, if not probably the same one from different profiles. So I added some flails to the Ramelli and a simple OOB looped chain. This proved a fruitless approach ateotd but I was able to move on from it quickly once the sim was built and tested. There was really no arguing or alternative.

However, I didn't give up on the basic conjectures of the TP. As B. says there are 5 children's games (toys). We know he drew 6 with ostensibly games C and D being the same toy-type. But then so possibly could be toys A and B from different front and side profiles as is often speculated.

What do we know ? There are at least 5 game types on the page. E, the SB, is easily recognizable as a game. C and D hammermen toys are also easily recognizable as games. The spinning top is recognizable as a game. Items A and B are less recognizable as known games imo, or even the same game. But to have 5 games on the page one or both A and B must be a representation of a game at very least.

It has been speculated that the best game that seems to fit these A and B items is a Jacobs Ladder (JL). But as jb points out the "blocks' aren't shown, just apparently a basic connection methodology (connectedness principle ?) as it appears in A and B. n.b. Bessler usually shows pivots and joints / fulcrums in his drawings with black dots with white dot centers (not always but mostly). A's "connections" don't show any obvious pivot / joint / or fulcrums. However B does show what seem to suggest alternating pivots perhaps more in line with how a JL might work. Or suggestive of "swapping places" as jb has said. The 2 top levers sharing the same connection point of B may suggest a biased movement about a shared pivot for example.

Anyhoo .. in summary there are ONLY games to be seen and interpreted on that page, to be used differently. It is my belief that some games have clear physical and mechanical properties and purposes than others. Imo some games are more symbolism than reality driven, meant to convey an idea or direction more than a physical or mechanical reality.

ATEOTD my conclusions were if C and D games and actions were not RB's then they must be something else entirely .. with SB's and variants of the family remaining firmly in the frame imo.

[johannesbender]

The next oddity would be , why did he print two hammermen mechanisms , one would have been enough , the difference between them is that one is to the left and the other to the right.

So a better question , why is it important to have one shown to the left and the other to the right .

I know all of the toys together appear like a full cycle , climbing up with the SB moving right with the top HM and falling down with the JL then moving left with the bottom HM , a complete cycle.

Apart from left and right movements being an obvious difference , I have difficulty deciding why two HM needs to be printed , how is that important.

[Fletcher]

... I know all of the toys together appear like a full cycle , climbing up with the SB moving right with the top HM and falling down with the JL then moving left with the bottom HM , a complete cycle.

And as Oystein speculated with that scenario perhaps the spinning top being the only revolving element on the page representing the axle. I tend to think that B. was highlighting the missing ropes of the spinning top toy as part of his solution to a unique movement.

I think it unlikely, or at least a remote possibility, that he was hinting at a earth momentum exchange energy source even if it turned out at a later time that was the actual energy source. He was attempting to find a wheel that would accelerate and be continuously self-moving i.e. momentum was gained and retained. Apparently he found it in a unique mechanical arrangement hinted at in the TP.

I think what Oystein and yourself have suggested as the page CW mechanical 'full-cycle' format has familiarity and logic to it and probably would be a good bet to be true. Or .. alternatively it doesn't 'flow' in that logical manner. A possible counter argument is that B. labelled the page A thru E from right to left which might mean something different to flow direction etc. Some of his MT drawings are labelled right to left and some left to right so perhaps not too much can be read into the lettering systems direction.

The next oddity would be , why did he print two hammermen (HM) mechanisms , one would have been enough , the difference between them is that one is to the left and the other to the right.

So a better question , why is it important to have one shown to the left and the other to the right ?

.. Apart from left and right movements being an obvious difference , I have difficulty deciding why two HM needs to be printed , how is that important ?

Page composition .. Whether consciously or subconsciously the center real-estate is usually the focal point of a picture or illustration. If you squint your eyes the 2 HM games dominate the page. This suggests to me a high ranking of importance compared to the other elements of that page.

Remembering that this page was inserted many years after his public wheel displays and tests, after his arrest, and was in his private collection. So he had no great need to be overly careful or devious in the games page placements and formatting etc imo. He already told the eventual reader that there was a motion and movement to be deduced in MT and that something extraordinary awaited the reader in the games of the TP.

"So a better question , why is it important to have one shown to the left and the other to the right ?"

It was important enough that he felt compelled to show both the HM games in opposite orientations. 1 HM game did not convey his full messaging it seems. And you will have noted that both games are not identically illustrated. They could easily have been drawn as clones of one another at different angles, however cloning simplification and expediency presumably did not fit his character, the mystery and intrigue, and/or messaging within.

My personal view is that firstly the HM games are the hero's of the TP because of their simplicity, placement and size, in the main. And secondly the rest of the 'illustrations' provide supporting roles and context to a final mechanical solution.

And that is where I diverge from the 'full-cycle' formatting theory of the page encompassing all mechanical and known actions of the 'theorized' associated toys in the cycle ( A, B, C, D, E .. or .. E, D, C, B, A). I think C, D, and E look very familiar and are largely unadulterated in basic form and actions because they are rather plain and simple. While to me A and B are not simple or complete at all, nor obvious JL's, and are way more obscure and mysterious than the former for good reason known to B and his messaging. It means I look upon them as indicative at best, rather than literal in the mechanical sense.

[Oystein]

From my work, I concluded that the following could be the reason for two hammer-men and the spinning top..

Best
Oystein

[johannesbender]

There was a kind of spinning top that made a humming or whistling sound when spun fast enough , they had holes in them to do it , for example a 17 century german whistling top , a 18 century french whistling top , and 2 modern diy replicas.

[johannesbender]

... I know all of the toys together appear like a full cycle , climbing up with the SB moving right with the top HM and falling down with the JL then moving left with the bottom HM , a complete cycle.

And as Oystein speculated with that scenario perhaps the spinning top being the only revolving element on the page representing the axle. I tend to think that B. was highlighting the missing ropes of the spinning top toy as part of his solution to a unique movement.

I think it unlikely, or at least a remote possibility, that he was hinting at a earth momentum exchange energy source even if it turned out at a later time that was the actual energy source. He was attempting to find a wheel that would accelerate and be continuously self-moving i.e. momentum was gained and retained. Apparently he found it in a unique mechanical arrangement hinted at in the TP.

I think what Oystein and yourself have suggested as the page CW mechanical 'full-cycle' format has familiarity and logic to it and probably would be a good bet to be true. Or .. alternatively it doesn't 'flow' in that logical manner. A possible counter argument is that B. labelled the page A thru E from right to left which might mean something different to flow direction etc. Some of his MT drawings are labelled right to left and some left to right so perhaps not too much can be read into the lettering systems direction.

IMO , if it indicates a cycle , it would seem to me that its an impossible cycle where height in equals height out , or put differently all GPE restored because Up equals down , we know accordingly to laws this is not possible , so there might be another reason it was done to appear like that .

Now interestingly enough another oddity, as mentioned the slight variation between the 2 HM , they are opposites in direction and the SB and JL are opposites in direction too .

On a side note , Bessler wrote the SB is better applied horizontal , should we turn the page 90 degrees...

[Fletcher]

Hey jb .. I'll come back to your comments when I have more time, prob tomorrow ..

...............

Just a bit of housekeeping for the moment ..

Thanks Oystein .. Let me start by saying I have the utmost respect for your efforts over the years. You make and have made convincing well researched and articulate arguments for connections which are hard to ignore or dismiss. Particularly your decoding efforts and making the connection (which few would doubt) of B. to Rosicrucian Freemasons ideology and sacred geometry etc.

B. was a Mason as was Karl IIRC. IINM a tenet of belonging to that group then and now is to believe in God. B. was a religious man who did believe in God so he met that criteria to be a card-carrying member and therefore could well have belonged and been familiar with the brotherhood and its inner secrets.

As has been said at times the Masonic G in their symbology is sometimes said to mean both G for God and G for Geometry. This seems to fit nicely with B's. belief in God and his mechanical solution to PM since it must involve Geometry of mechanics in one form or another. A more than strong probability I would say that that connection is real and exists.

.............

Before I continue on ..

A page back you introduced a proof for John Collins AP of the Rot12 being used which I don't dispute at all. See your pic below.

I just wanted to note that John's translator for AP to English, Mike Senior, presumably also applied Rot12 and translated the coded passage it seems without bothering to mention it. See his translation below.

AP Pg 249 .. "The man from Kassel is certainly described by all that has gone before. D.H., remain deeply obliged to the most esteemed Councillor."

Oystein Rot 12 decoding .. N.B. der cassler man ist gewis, von dem letzt geschriben

DeepL Translate .. N.B. the cassler man is certain, of the last written

Google Translate .. N.B. the cassler man is certain/sure, from the last written

Well .. at least they seem to align reasonably well to me suggesting Mike automatically did the decoding with Rot12 !

.............

Back to your last post about the Rosi-Masonic symbolism of Square and Compass with a G inside .. I am in 100% agreement with you that it more than likely represents a connection between Rosi-Masons and B's. secret mechanism within the TP.

You said .. "Toypage - Spinning top is axle and Masonic eye in a square and compass function.. Two hammermen to show position A/B. This is why, in my opinion Bessler applied the Rosicrucian Masonic code.. leading to his secret figure.. that happened to also be one of his inventions main mechanical secrets."

I think we would have to deaf dumb and blind to not make that connection between the parallelogram/pantograph of the Square and Compass sacred geometry and the HM once you had done the research and brought it to our attention, and indeed a section of a SB for that matter. If we look at the right hand side item A of the TP it perhaps to some folds into that visual imagery also, imo. Then of course we have the MT bent-arm A's thru-out the MT document, which could also be indicative of an articulated four sided mech with little stretching of the imagination, and a revert-back wink-'n-nod to the Masons, imo.

All this anecdotal evidence points strongly to the HM pantographs as not only the heart and hero's of the TP imo, but as you said, 'one of his inventions main mechanical secrets'.

[johannesbender]

I personally think that the origin , for most of the mason and rosicrucian and numerology things people think they find , can be attributed more to the person who finds it than bessler.

[Oystein]

I personally think that the origin , for most of the mason and rosicrucian and numerology things people think they find , can be attributed more to the person who finds it than bessler.

Assuming that anything and everything is wrong, would of course lead you nowhere. And assuming everything is correct, leads you in all the wrong places. So, some place between nowhere and the wrong places, is the right place.

Thus what you say is true.

Best
Oystein

[Sam Peppiatt]

Oystein,
I think you just described a critic. Anything and everything that you do is wrong and, anything and everything that they say, is right---------------------------Sam

[johannesbender]

I personally think that the origin , for most of the mason and rosicrucian and numerology things people think they find , can be attributed more to the person who finds it than bessler.

Assuming that anything and everything is wrong, would of course lead you nowhere. And assuming everything is correct, leads you in all the wrong places. So, some place between nowhere and the wrong places, is the right place.

Thus what you say is true.

Best
Oystein

Agree a healthy sifted middle ground is better than to assume everything you see others ascribe to bessler as true facts , some things do seem very convincing , but if you look at everything people out there claim bessler has apparently hidden , I might conclude either bessler was insane or has had the ability to magically hide thousands of things in the same book , or people are really gullible , but each to his own .