In for a penny, in for a pound.

[Robinhood46]

Well spotted Agor. I think the sentence that you quote is incorrect, this is because it is incomplete.
After posting my last post i too spotted something wrong with my reasoning.
What i should have said is that IF the imbalance of the AP system is used to do some kind of work (nudge the weight on the crossbar) then two weights reduces the work needed to raise the next weight. If the downward force created by the imbalance is being transferred into kinetic energy in the AP wheel then the difference between two or one weight is negligible, because the kinetic energy will be supplying part of the force needed to raise the next weight. I think this is what you are referring to.
The force with which the weights hit the rim is totally wasted in the video.
If the movement of the weight is "doing something" then the impact wouldn't be as shown.
What i find curious is that i have come all the way back to where i started from. Leonardo de Vinci's wheel which has the fundamental difference, or in your words "Tri-fold curve".
The only thing going around forever is our confusing thoughts.

[agor95]

Well spotted Agor. I think the sentence that you quote is incorrect, this is because it is incomplete.

You are correct,I cut quotes for brevity, as they are available either by scrolling up or clicking on the little up arrow next to your name on the right in the quote.

When I can these thought experiments take me into the 3d movement world. That required programming a model etc.

For example; imagining the mass being lifted rolling along a path in the z-plan and x-plan.

So it looks front on to be moving horizontally towards the centre line. From the devices point perspective it is has less weight.
When the devices rotates we get the the position as before and the mass rolls down the curve to the rim position and we harvest more weight
as the ball curves up at the end into that z-plan latching path explained.

These descriptions are best seen with a 3d presentation. Shame I am suck with the maths study.

I do not this many hopefully have gone into the 3d path investigation.

Regards

[Robinhood46]

I am not too sure what it is you mean when you describe the movement in the Z plane.
I think the missing dimension in 2d simulations makes communication of our thoughts very difficult. We all know that a picture is worth a thousand words, but i for one can't be bothered to make multiple drawings to show a relatively simple movement on the Z axis. I much prefer to explain it with a few words and assume that they actually allow someone to understand exactly what I'm thinking. I do know from experience that I'm generally delusional, my explanations don't allow people to understand.
I have mainly been counting on the Z plane for locking releasing devices, or for avoiding obstacles, maybe the weights moving in the z plane could have an important effect on the dynamics in play.
For the time being i will stay with 2 dimensions and work on the interaction between the AP wheel with weights and the crossbar with the shifting unbalance.

[gravitationallychallenged]

RH46 I like your idea of balancing 4 lbs against 1 lb which coincides with Bessler's clues. Instead of a pendulum (lever) being located on the end of an arm, I think it should be located at the rim of the wheel. That way the force of a falling centrally located heavy (prime mover) weight can be linked to a lighter (slave weight) to lift the slave weight from the bottom of the wheel up towards the center. Picture the lever attached to a pivot mounted at the 3 o'clock position and the SW attached to end of the lever resting at the bottom of the wheel at the 6 o'clock position. As the lever (pendulum) lifts the SW off of the rim towards the center of the wheel the load of the SW is transferred from the rim at 6 o'clock to the pivot at the 3 o'clock position. The sudden loading of the pivot point and simultaneous torque reaction should cause the 3 o'clock pivot to pull the rim of the wheel down. This rotation should lift the PM to a position to where it can fall and repeat the process. The diameter of the wheel must be large enough for the SW to have enough leverage to lift the PM and the falling PM must have enough force to lift the SW rapidly.

[Robinhood46]

Not entirely sure that i understand what you are saying.
I think you mean an arm somewhat similar to this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUBhkVAByTg but instead of working with the other one to lift the heavy central weights, you suggest the heavy central weight causes the light weight to raise, and lift another light weight from the rim at 6 toward the central axis ????????
The action happening with the swivel at 3 does pull the wheel down as you describe, but i don't get what you want the weight being lifted from the rim to do?????? Is it the light weight at the end of the arm swivelling at 3, when it is it's turn to be at 3??? (It doesn't sound right???)
Maybe you can correct my mistakes before i continue.

[WaltzCee]

.
.
.
Not entirely sure that i understand what you are saying.
I think you mean an arm somewhat similar to this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUBhkVAByTg but instead of working with the other one to lift the heavy central weights, you suggest the heavy central weight causes the light weight to raise, and lift another light weight from the rim at 6 toward the central axis ????????
.
.
The action happening with the swivel at 3 does pull the wheel down as you describe, but i don't get what you want the weight being lifted from the rim to do?????? Is it the light weight at the end of the arm swivelling at 3, when it is it's turn to be at 3??? (It doesn't sound right???)
Maybe you can correct my mistakes before i continue.

.
.

[Robinhood46]

Getting the AP wheel to nudge the crossbar is a piece of cake.
I wouldn't have thought synchronising the interaction would be too difficult either. The difficult part is causing the crossbar to become top heavy, so as to nudge the AP wheel.
Maybe something along the lines of MT 24 would be better for the crossbar, with the rolling cylinders only having an effect on one branch?
There are a lot of things to play with and obviously Algodoo has it's limitations.
This is little different than the previous video, but shows how simple it could be.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qePBUiOBCSo

[agor95]

Hi Robinhood46

I like the bar; it just goes around.

I wonder what two cross bars will do?

Regards

[Robinhood46]

Two crossbars get in the way of each other. Well they do if they are the same as in the video.
If i have only one sided crossbars, as in only one long arm that interacts with the rolling cylinders, then it is interesting the way they behave.
The problem is Algodoo is making it difficult to make a video where it functions for a reasonable time before things start playing silly buggers.
The curved rails that the cylinders roll on can be made to be further from the central axis, this allows for longer crossbar arms that don't interact with the cylinders. The rolling cylinders come in only a certain distance, stay at that distance and then only move out once they have passed 12.

[WaltzCee]

.
.
Getting the AP wheel to nudge the crossbar is a piece of cake.
I wouldn't have thought synchronising the interaction would be too difficult either. The difficult part is causing the crossbar to become top heavy, so as to nudge the AP wheel.
.
Maybe something along the lines of MT 24 would be better for the crossbar, with the rolling cylinders only having an effect on one branch?
There are a lot of things to play with and obviously Algodoo has it's limitations.
This is little different than the previous video, but shows how simple it could be.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qePBUiOBCSo

.
.

.
.
[ or maybe licencing a copy of the call-able subroutine UIAF Technology ®* ]

If you strap that into the library of subroutines, your analogue machine might give the desired output.

* UIAF Technology ® or Up In A Flash Technology, is a strap-on mechanism providing potency to any and all impotent designs one might imagine.

A single exclusive world wide rights licensing agreement is presently up for grabs. Get it while it's hot!

[Robinhood46]

WaltzCee, i really haven't got a clue what you are talking about, and I'm afraid this happens pretty often.

[WaltzCee]

try to conceptualize a table top Higgs boson generator. A massive instantaneous flash in the pan. Now catch it, get it by the throat. Make it do your bidding.

Intrinsic to the 4-d space/time fabric are the germs or seeds of creation.

God is good.

[JUBAT]

That MT24 diagram reminds me of the hammer toys. I can see the resemblance, but I fail to see how it's a runner though. If reduced to an odd number of segments and 2 descenders pulling 1 ascender back - then maybe I could see it - but still highly doubtful with .001 percent chance of working (cue stage hands)

If you have a working device, I hope it succeeds before I kick the bucket. At this point, I've come to terms with no solution will be achieved in my lifetime and it certainly won't be achieved by me despite all my hopes, dreams, money, and wasted life spent on it.

Always an intense and cynical skeptic from this point forward, but also open to being proved wrong...in fact I almost welcome the intense personal disappointment a solution would bring.

[JUBAT]

Further on the subject, despite my heavy skepticism I do like the idea of the rolling weight that crosses over from ascending to descending side. The momentum it builds can whack and hammer something from one position to another. The ball also never goes over the top of the wheel... instead traversing across the middle of the wheel to impact something on the other side or to move something along the way. If what if the weight the ball is moving is above the ball itself on the descending side, then it could potentially have enough force to propel the wheel through again and again.

The rolling ball takes a 180 degree path via a shortcut though the middle while the other weights make the full 360 degree path.

That rolling ball would give us the impact force and the mechanical slop we need to prevent everything finding its point of rest. It's kind of hard for gravity to get ahold of a steel ball and keep it from moving.

Maybe if I put my pool table on a lazy Susan and give it a spin will I see some movement.

[Robinhood46]

Jubat,
I think we are seeing the same sort of juggling of forces going on.
Where I'm not too sure that we are aligned in our thoughts is your comment;
"The rolling ball takes a 180 degree path via a shortcut though the middle while the other weights make the full 360 degree path."
I don't see any weights doing 360°. I know this sounds strange, but i see the weights repeatedly doing either 120° or 180°. The 180° you can't see in the video because there isn't any synchronisation between the AP and the crossbar, but i think you get what i mean.
The "something" that the cylinder actions on the crossbar is the next step, then i will need to play with the curved rails that the cylinders roll on.