Part Three is the Charm

[mryy]

Thanks. WaltzCee for the Win!

[WaltzCee]

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You're very welcome.

When you surround the link with [img] tags, phpBB, treats the link like a picture.

• like this w/o spaces [img ] link [/ img]

The principle I see imbodied in your example is similar to a starting selinoid. Rather than pull the supply wires of a starter to the starter/ignition switch into the cab of a vehicle, they pull the smaller wires of the coil of the selinoid to the driver's seat.

By engaging the selinoid, a small current switches the power of the battery to the starter and if you have spark, gas & compression, you can get to the store & buy some more grog!!

Life is good!!

I belaboured that description for the benefit of those who don't know how starter systems work & also to summerize the concept:

• Use a little energy in one part of a system to control a more powerful energy elsewhere.

Although the idea is not novel, your example is the best mechanical example I've ever seen on this forum.

Good job, mryy.

Having said all that, there is a principle more foundational/fundamental to the notion of perpetual motion than this idea.

You can take that assertion to the bank.

[WaltzCee]

When I was a little tyke, I'd go outside with my daddy & he'd drag his tool boxes out & open them up, get a few wrenches & crawl under our jalopy & start turning them.

After a while, he might request, "get me a three quarter inch!". I knew he had different kinds, so I'd ask, "open end or boxed end?"

He would try & fool me, but I knew better.

[WaltzCee]

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here's an interesting animation I found, mryy


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cool, huh?

I've been rooting thru the forum and noticed a lot of cool ideas that never went anywhere.

I didn't notice when Frank was talking about mechanical rectification, stumbled on the idea all by myself. Yet his discussion predates mine.

So whose idea is it? Maybe belongs to the one who can make something of it, can make it work.

[JUBAT]

That's the dominant flywheel.

[WaltzCee]

It is, Jubat. And it never went anywhere.

I think the magnet could be replaced with more of a cam, the magnet unnecessarily complicates the design.

[Tarsier79]

I think you shouldn't replace it with anything.

If a component does not add value, it should not be on a "wheel". As far as I know, neither a magnet or cam adds value. Either could be used to move the arm... if moving the arm contributed to something positive.

[WaltzCee]

As far as I know, neither a magnet or cam adds value.

Looks to me like they (cam or magnet) harvest the RKE of the wheel, store it in the spring, then feed it back into the rotation in an effort to get it over the top.

This flywheel is cool, but nothing compared to the ideas I'm looking at.

[Fletcher]

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Notice also that the inside mechanism of pipe organs involves plenty of linkages and pivots. It would not surprise me that B. runners were similar in that respect. I mean just look at the Toys Page.

Yeah Walt .. when you look at the inner workings of an organ (as just about all of us will have done) there is absolutely nothing earth shattering in mechanical terms imo. Just simple machines. They, thru mechanical linkages and pivots redirect forces, sometimes in the X, Y, and Z etc. I can see why B. got excited about the variety of mechanics on show which he learned about.

The reason I brought it up is that mryy also obviously believes there is more than a casual commonality to the Toy's Page, as I do .. the 'coincidence' of many linkages and pivots etc and their ability to redirect forces is just too great to be just a 'casual coincidence', or happenstance.

As you know by now I believe the TP is only about the mechanical Prime Mover apparatus(es) .. and by associative logic it has lots of moving and pivoted parts .. and fwiw the Prime Mover is a mechanism and not a 'principle' imo .. because B. said the following - n.b. where he talks about "registers, stops, chords and key-boards" he is obviously referring to the logistical operations (mechanisms).

Here's AP digital (Mike Senior) .. content whittled by me

XXI. ... Their subtle mechanisms fascinated me. ... I learned things I had never known before, ... I found there all I could wish for.

... If I hadn't undertaken such enterprises (me .. building organs), I would probably not have achieved the Mobile.

... through organ-making, all things turned out successfully for me!

... All the different registers, stops, chords and key-boards in their almost infinite subtle variety - all this, I say, prepared me for the Primum Mobile, and accompanied me on the true path towards it.

[WaltzCee]

• .............
  
  Notice also that the inside mechanism of pipe organs involves plenty of linkages and pivots. It would not surprise me that B. runners were similar in that respect. I mean just look at the Toys Page.
  

WaltC did not write that, Mr Fletcher.

and fwiw the Prime Mover is a mechanism and not a 'principle' imo ..

I apologize for this misunderstanding. Let me try and clear it up right now.

• The principle of perpetual motion can be embodied in any number of mechanical contrivances yet w/o that principle most any contraption most likely won't exhibit PM.

I've written that principle before, yet let me do it again.

• Intrinsic to the very fabric of 4-d time/space are the germs of creation.

More generally, it could be stated like begats like.

[Fletcher]

.............

Notice also that the inside mechanism of pipe organs involves plenty of linkages and pivots. It would not surprise me that B. runners were similar in that respect. I mean just look at the Toys Page.

WaltC did not write that, Mr Fletcher.

and fwiw the Prime Mover is a mechanism and not a 'principle' imo ..

I apologize for this misunderstanding. Let me try and clear it up right now.

• The principle of perpetual motion can be embodied in any number of mechanical contrivances yet w/o that principle most any contraption most likely won't exhibit PM.

I've written that principle before, yet let me do it again.

• Intrinsic to the very fabric of 4-d time/space are the germs of creation.

More generally, it could be stated like begats like.

Apologies Mr Walt .. corrected for mryy .. don't tell my wife I made a mistake .. I made one the other day and told her it was only the second time in 20 years and she rolled her eyes lol .. she would forever remind me that I was wrong again ..


I think it is just ONE type of "subtle" mechanism (the Prime Mover) that can be cobbled to any number of OOB contrivances that are built from simple machine mechanics upholding COE etc.

A metaphorical analogy would be the 'mechanical heart' placed into the tin man !

[WaltzCee]

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It seems we're at odds here, Fletcher.
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Your point:

• I think it is just ONE type of "subtle" mechanism (the Prime Mover) that can be cobbled to any number of OOB contrivances that are built from simple machine mechanics upholding COE etc.

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& mine:

• The principle of perpetual motion can be embodied in any number of mechanical contrivances yet w/o that principle most any contraption most likely won't exhibit PM.

I also think not all OB contrivances are equal. Some are more efficient than others.

Maybe others have some thoughts they'd like to share . .. .. .

[mryy]

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You're very welcome.

When you surround the link with [img] tags, phpBB, treats the link like a picture.

• like this w/o spaces [img ] link [/ img]

The principle I see imbodied in your example is similar to a starting selinoid. Rather than pull the supply wires of a starter to the starter/ignition switch into the cab of a vehicle, they pull the smaller wires of the coil of the selinoid to the driver's seat.

By engaging the selinoid, a small current switches the power of the battery to the starter and if you have spark, gas & compression, you can get to the store & buy some more grog!!

Life is good!!

I belaboured that description for the benefit of those who don't know how starter systems work & also to summerize the concept:

• Use a little energy in one part of a system to control a more powerful energy elsewhere.

Although the idea is not novel, your example is the best mechanical example I've ever seen on this forum.

Good job, mryy.

Having said all that, there is a principle more foundational/fundamental to the notion of perpetual motion than this idea.

You can take that assertion to the bank.

Aww thanks (and also for the posting tip). I would even say the wheel behaves something like an electrical converter (which changes current flow type) whereby the direction of the wheel's ascending side torque is reversed -- in theory that is.

You're right that the idea isn't novel and I don't think it has to be to arrive at PM. Even Karl and B. stated something to that effect. Karl was surprised that such a wheel wasn't built in the past. The principle, whatever it is, could be right under our nose.

Now are you gonna build the wheel? ;)

[mryy]

When I was a little tyke, I'd go outside with my daddy & he'd drag his tool boxes out & open them up, get a few wrenches & crawl under our jalopy & start turning them.

After a while, he might request, "get me a three quarter inch!". I knew he had different kinds, so I'd ask, "open end or boxed end?"

He would try & fool me, but I knew better.

Daddy was honing little tyke. Daddy done good and so did tyke. :)

[mryy]

.............

Notice also that the inside mechanism of pipe organs involves plenty of linkages and pivots. It would not surprise me that B. runners were similar in that respect. I mean just look at the Toys Page.

Yeah Walt .. when you look at the inner workings of an organ (as just about all of us will have done) there is absolutely nothing earth shattering in mechanical terms imo. Just simple machines. They, thru mechanical linkages and pivots redirect forces, sometimes in the X, Y, and Z etc. I can see why B. got excited about the variety of mechanics on show which he learned about.

The reason I brought it up is that mryy also obviously believes there is more than a casual commonality to the Toy's Page, as I do .. the 'coincidence' of many linkages and pivots etc and their ability to redirect forces is just too great to be just a 'casual coincidence', or happenstance.

As you know by now I believe the TP is only about the mechanical Prime Mover apparatus(es) .. and by associative logic it has lots of moving and pivoted parts .. and fwiw the Prime Mover is a mechanism and not a 'principle' imo .. because B. said the following - n.b. where he talks about "registers, stops, chords and key-boards" he is obviously referring to the logistical operations (mechanisms).

Here's AP digital (Mike Senior) .. content whittled by me

XXI. ... Their subtle mechanisms fascinated me. ... I learned things I had never known before, ... I found there all I could wish for.

... If I hadn't undertaken such enterprises (me .. building organs), I would probably not have achieved the Mobile.

... through organ-making, all things turned out successfully for me!

... All the different registers, stops, chords and key-boards in their almost infinite subtle variety - all this, I say, prepared me for the Primum Mobile, and accompanied me on the true path towards it.

Responding on behalf of Walt I have to agree that it just can't be a coincidence that TP shows all theses pivots and linkages. Looking at them one can sense the influence of organ-craft that B. was so passionate about.