Zeroing in on Bessler's wheel

[JUBAT]

Sounds like a twisted version of a wishing well except you need the pennies before you build instead of afterward.

Perhaps you could start with zinc pennies and request people throw copper pennies at it wishing it would work so that you could afford the upgrade.

No hate - I'm just burned out and oober-cynical that any of this will come to fruition in my lifetime.

I wish you all the best (while throwing a virtual legit copper slug your way.)

[WaltzCee]

PM is an amazing puzzle. The world's most brilliant minds have given it a go and the best they've come up with is the reasons it's impossible.

One of my pet theories is the 4-d space/time fabric is like a seed. There is energy within it to create even more of it. Both creationists and materialists agree space & time had a beginning.

They do disagree on the details.

Most people looking for PM would agree Bessler figured it out. We know there is an answer, we just can't see it. So we keep looking.

Most likely a very average person is going to be the one to figure it out. I'd like to take this moment to rub that fact in the faces of all the geniuses who've come before me.

nanny nanny boo boo!

there is a time to tear down & a time to build.

[JUBAT]

I don't consider you average since I've gone back and read a lot of your posts. You, F, JC, Michigan Jim, ovyyus, rasselass, robinhood46, Sam, etc. Are but just some of those I consider part of the above average to exceptional to experienced crowd.

Not that I don't think you are incapable, it's just that having my hopes dashed thousands of tumes, I've completely given up personally on the quest as well as any shred of hope I might have had. I find that much easier to deal with than the baited hook of false hopes.

Not in my lifetime. If it happens, I'll be glad to be proved wrong, and before I kick the big one, I just hope if there is a solution, they inventor will be kind enough to show me how I was wrong with all applicable NDAs covered. I promise I won't scrawl the solution on my coffin lid.

[JUBAT]

I don't consider you average since I've gone back and read a lot of your posts. You, F, JC, Michigan Jim, ovyyus, rasselass, robinhood46, Sam, etc. Are but just some of those I consider part of the above average to exceptional to experienced crowd.

Not that I don't think you are incapable, it's just that having my hopes dashed thousands of times, I've completely given up personally on the quest as well as any shred of hope I might have had. I find that much easier to deal with than the baited hook of false hopes.

Not in my lifetime. If it happens, I'll be glad to be proved wrong, and before I kick the big one, I just hope if there is a solution, the inventor will be kind enough to show me how I was wrong with all applicable NDAs covered. I promise I won't scrawl the solution on my coffin lid.

[JUBAT]

Sorry for double post. I didn't catch it in time.

[Sam Peppiatt]

A big setback,
Have to order smaller discs, the 9 inch diameter discs don't move the toggle far enough---------------------Sam

[Sam Peppiatt]

For what ever it's worth,
Made all of the parts for the toggles and completed machining of the discs. The rollers drive the toggles which slide the weights out at 3:00 and back in at 9:00. The shifting is smooth and continuous. At 6 &12 they are at the half way point / balanced. Unfortunately, at 6 & 12, the discs might tend to roll backwards and, cause back torque.

It has occurred to me to use a one way clutch in the hub of of the disc to prevent this from happening. Seams like Bessler did design a back stop clutch; maybe that's why. It could be the last piece of the puzzle-----------------Sam

[WaltzCee]

Hey Sam, good to see you're still truckin'!

I found this thread & thought I'd put it here to maybe cause some discussion.

Everthing you state below is true and interesting, however, it is based on an assumption.

You stated: "The key thing about Bessler's wheel was that he figured out a way _CONTINUALLY_ to extract energy from gravity - a "conservative force". That was his great discovery."

This is an assumption and your assumption discounts all other possibilities for driving the weights within Bessler's wheel. There's always more than one way to skin the cat, so to speak.

Some time ago I built a 3 foot diameter wheel that used electrically moved radial weights. Even though the wheel exhibited constant overbalancing torque, moving the weights obviously had nothing to do with gravity at all.

I'm not saying Bessler electrically moved his weights . But there are other possibilities that might add energy to an accelerated mass system - perhaps dependant on shape (wing or sail) or specific weight motion (spin, etc). The point being that a legitimate energy input (perhaps thermal) may have been discovered by Bessler.

IMO, we can not easily assume that gravity alone moved the internal weights.

Regards, oy vey


: By the subject line, I do NOT mean it is time to ditch the quest for better energy sources - merely that the term "Over Unity" is deeply misleading....

: I believe that Bessler's wheel was genuine but I do not believe it was "Over Unity".

: The term O/U means an excess of output power over input power.

: Bessler's wheel clearly gave output power, but if you added up all the input power, it would come to a slightly greater figure (depending on the friction / sound losses etc).

: The key thing about Bessler's wheel was that he figured out a way _CONTINUALLY_ to extract energy from gravity - a "conservative force". That was his great discovery.

: This certainly upsets ideas about conservative forces, but does not necessarily contravene the 'law' of the conservation of energy because gravity was constantly making good the losses AND providing the putput power.

: At least, the above holds good in terms of the small scale situation of the experimenter with his wheel. I suppose you might argue that it does contravene the law of the conservation of energy on the large scale because lots of working Bessler wheels will give out energy that ultimately goes into the universe as heat and light. But I would still say that this isn't "O/U" because you are merely cycling energy from one source - "gravity" into another form....

: In any event, it does raise interesting questions about entropy and the total amount of energy in the universe....

: ...IF gravity can be a source of energy, then it is either a finite or infinite source.

: If the gravitational field on our planet can only provide a (very large but) finite amount of energy, then in principle it might be a bad technology because continual extraction will reduce the gravitational field (or cool the planet or some other unforseen effect). Admittedly, the total amount of energy that humanity might extract from such a large pool might be so small as to make no practical difference, but in principle the idea that gravitational energy resources might be finite is interesting enough to deserve more thought...

: If the gravitational energy 'pool' on this planet is infinite, then it is presumably true for all the zillions of planets in the universe - in which case you have a universe supposedly with a fixed (but massive) amount of total energy, but which is populated with a very large number of infinite-energy sources - which is also 'interesting'....

: So either way a working Bessler wheel, quite apart from its other benefits, will provoke a rethink on some fairly fundamental issues of physics and cosmology.

: But to call it an "O/U device" will cause more misunderstanding than clarity IMHO.

: [ name ]

[Sam Peppiatt]

Hi waltcy!!
I have a bad feeling that a working wheel will be terribly boring! We won't have a thing to talk about---------------Sam

[WaltzCee]

.
If history is remotely predictive, then you might be mistaken here, Sam.

I see the discovery of PM as a door leading to so much human activity, the industrial revolution will pale in comparison. Unfortunately for humanity, the #architect_of_the_pyramid will be on the bleeding edge of that curve.

Call him ET, or an eternal, or a decended master, or whatever, yet don't underestimate his contempt for humanity or his intellect.

[JUBAT]

A working wheel is great, but what if all it was - was pendulums with ratchets falling down winding up springs and when the last pendulum fell, then one by one a pendulum was caught and lifted so that it could fall and wind the spring up some more. That would be kind of boring.

[Fletcher]

It's been tried ..

It was all torque, and no action ..

[Fletcher]

I know you're gonna say .. torque is cheap !

[agor95]

One can only smile

[Sam Peppiatt]

Sure, some thigs will change a lot, others not so much. Years from now people will look back and say; how could those old timers have been so ignorant!!

It's fairly simple, the rollers will lift the weights and the toggle is well suited for shifting them. By adding a one way bearing, what could go wrong----------------------------Sam