MTs, WM2D, and WM Basic Language Script Code

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Re: MTs, WM2D, and WM Basic Language Script Code

Post by Fletcher »

Q. .. "kicking the can down the road" theory - I like that - below is an example of you kicking that can .. I am not happy with how you explained where the extra energy came from to give the wheel initial acceleration and then reach and maintain operating rpm ? - can you do better ?
-f wrote:.. or perhaps the mechanics of Prime Mover shape transformation and recovery are so unique that the runner can not find the PQ position because it has an extra speed given forever kicking it on by the PQ, but that is even harder to explain rationally in known physics terms ..
A. I'll try an be less ambiguous and more insightful - I can not give you new information but I can repeat what I've said before about it .. the runner gaining energy to do Work is problematic to explain within the confines of known Physics without stored energy reserves needing replenishment - for a runner to output mechanical energy it must also use input energy etc etc - and that raises the question of where does this come from if not transferring and transforming momentum from earth system to wheel system ? - we suspect that runners were purely mechanical contrivances - therefore we expect that a large portion of their mechanical nature was down to implementing "simple-machines" which are conservative - therefore a runner must have an element of machines in its manufacture which are not simple-machines, tho mechanics per se, to bridge the gap to a non-conservative outcome so to speak - i.e. a mechanical method of reducing back-torque to give periodic torque asymmetry i.e. net positive forward torque conditions to cause a gaining of momentum and RKE in a runner - this could be considered the Perpetual Motion Principle, operationally embodied in a unique mechanical form !

And this might go some way to explaining why each runner is designed for a maximum unloaded operating rpm - proportions and by design - in that the higher the operating rpm, and considering the 'lag effect', the Prime Mover mechanism might well have to be unlatched and released earlier, morph and recover later, at various higher operating rpms etc ..
Last edited by Fletcher on Sun Jun 25, 2023 2:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MTs, WM2D, and WM Basic Language Script Code

Post by Sam Peppiatt »

FWEIW,
There has to be two sets of weights. One set to drive / turn the wheel and a second set, to shift the first set of weights, (in on the up side and out on the down side). The question is; which set is the prime mover--------------------Sam
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Re: MTs, WM2D, and WM Basic Language Script Code

Post by WaltzCee »

.
Sam Peppiatt wrote: Sun Jun 25, 2023 2:59 am FWEIW,
There has to be two sets of weights. One set to drive / turn the wheel and a second set, to shift the first set of weights, (in on the up side and out on the down side). The question is; which set is the prime mover--------------------Sam
Hey Sam! I'll post my thoughts here.

Good posts as usual, Fletcher. One criteria of a prime mover is it has to move. I've made so many mechanisms that fit that bill. If I were wondering if the contraption is it, I'd SIM it on a 3 foot disk with a motor at the CoR and spin it up to 300 rpm.
  • It should still move.
There is a gradient between rotational & translational energies. That idea/principle can be embodied in all sorts of mechanics to make a prime mover.

If you found what I think you found, it will move itself. You won't have to feed that prime mover motion into any OB contraption. I SIM'ed 8 mechanisms and had that puppy spinning at 9 million rpm. No frictions, etc, yet impervious to c.f. Self started.

Now, HSAT (having said all that), I think I've discovered something even cooler.

Honestly, I'm getting lazy Fletcher. I will get it built and report back, but I'm not setting any deadlines. :)
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Re: MTs, WM2D, and WM Basic Language Script Code

Post by JUBAT »

Just curious WC. You've mentioned this 9 million rpm mechanism at least a couple of times. How much of what you've discovered fits the clues as found at: https://besslerwheel.com/clues.html

Also since the wheel is supposed to be so "simple" - where was that ever said or is it from that misleading filth from Castle Wissenstein or whatnot?

John Collins posted another entry on his blog, but it's the same old stuff pointing you to buy his books. He swears up and down he is going to reveal his wheel, but never ever does nor will he (it's like a prank within a prank). It's almost another twist on the KB philosophy of revealing nothing and getting paid for it.

300+ years of something we can't really say was for real or not. Mankind wanting free energy, but only one person out of billions that "solved" it? KB and JB will have you believe there are 3, but I'm leaning hard to none.

Bessler was a court jester as far as I'm concerned. The odds are better that man will make it to the moon some day or actually travel through the air - both claims that were actually proven with manifested invention.
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Re: MTs, WM2D, and WM Basic Language Script Code

Post by Sam Peppiatt »

You say Besslers wheel is filth!
Sounds like you think you think John Collins is too. Critics; no regard for any thing or any one-------------------Sam
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Re: MTs, WM2D, and WM Basic Language Script Code

Post by JUBAT »

Sam Peppiatt wrote: Sun Jun 25, 2023 10:13 pm You say Besslers wheel is filth!
Sounds like you think you think John Collins is too. Critics; no regard for any thing or any one-------------------Sam
Not so hasty there captain peppiatt. Here is what I said verbatim: ...is it from that misleading filth from Castle Wissenstein or whatnot?

Not calling the wheel filth - I'm calling the Castle Wissenstein chronicles the filth.

I'd like there to be a solution, but I smell a rat. I believe if there really is a solution, that it doesn't rely on gravity at all.

In fact, I'm starting to suspect a supernatural involvement of which I want no part of and is also why I'm a heavy skeptic. I invested a lot of time and money into it and have absolutely nothing to show for it but debt and disappointment. It's kind of foolish actually - to believe out of billions of people over the course of human history and only one purported to find the solution and it just so happened to be a guy in Germany in the 1700s? I mean you can't make this stuff up. Bessler wanted recognition post mortem and he got it. It's like a ratty old treasure map with a story behind it - people spend their lives looking for buried treasure and 99.9% get nothing for their efforts in the end.

I just stress - don't let the hope of something for nothing cloud your judgement away from the realities and cause you to miss out on your life in the process like I did.

All that being said - is it possible some movement could be effected with moving pendulum pivots? Every Tom, Dick, and Harry that used pendulums likes to pin them to the wheel. What if the pivots were on tracks and allowed to move? Does this change anything? Make for a better prank or effect better movement?
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Re: MTs, WM2D, and WM Basic Language Script Code

Post by Fletcher »

WaltzCee wrote: .. Good posts as usual, Fletcher. One criteria of a prime mover is it has to move. I've made so many mechanisms that fit that bill. If I were wondering if the contraption is it, I'd SIM it on a 3 foot disk with a motor at the CoR and spin it up to 300 rpm.
  • It should still move.
There is a gradient between rotational & translational energies. That idea/principle can be embodied in all sorts of mechanics to make a prime mover.
Yes, imo also, the Prime Mover mechanism has to move, and it does that by losing GPE (gradient) .. I use a 1 or 2 meter diameter backing disk but don't often attach a motor drive etc .. Cf's usually pin any weights to the rim (so they can't move) well before 300 rpm in my sims, certainly not unaffected at 9 mill rpms for sure ..
WaltzCee wrote:If you found what I think you found, it will move itself. You won't have to feed that prime mover motion into any OB contraption. I SIM'ed 8 mechanisms and had that puppy spinning at 9 million rpm. No frictions, etc, yet impervious to c.f. Self started.
Yes, I predict the mech should be able to move itself and be relatively unaffected by Cf's thru quite a wide range of rpms (within reason) .. at this stage I still have it cobbled to an OOB subsystem in that they share the same wheel interior but they do not physically interact/touch in any way - atm it appears any conservative OOB system will work for causing an initial torque movement which the Prime Mover mech then capitalizes on - even just spheres on tracks or cages at right angles to the rim moving just a couple of inches will do, or rim sliding weights between stops etc - can't get any simpler than that .. after that the OOB system is pretty much along for the ride like a flywheel if I am right about this ..

I am not so confident that the separate OOB subsytsem can be engineered out of the design altogether (it being included neatly fits B's. clues so meeting his claim of solving the age old mystery of PM) .. I'll have to see if I can simplify some more and make it a one-shoe-fits-all Prime Mover apparatus at some later stage, but right now that is a secondary task for further development if successful with the first .. obviously then, mine won't self-start without the aid of the OOB subsystems input - but I could hand position just the Prime Mover mech and it would move when a gravity gradient is in effect but right now I believe it needs the feedback loop of actions and inertial effects to potentially self-sustain motion ..
WaltzCee wrote:Now, HSAT (having said all that), I think I've discovered something even cooler.

Honestly, I'm getting lazy Fletcher. I will get it built and report back, but I'm not setting any deadlines. :)
Discovered something "cooler" than that - get out of here ! .. that's some dopamine rush goin on at your place lol ..
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Re: MTs, WM2D, and WM Basic Language Script Code

Post by WaltzCee »

.
Thanks for this clarity, Fletcher.

Because of many factors [latency, frictions, etc.] an OOB contraption needs the PM, yet it has no such dependencies.

I might be wrong in my guess of what you've found.
obviously then, mine won't self-start without the aid of the OOB subsystems input - but I could hand position just the Prime Mover mech and it would move when a gravity gradient is in effect but right now I believe it needs the feedback loop of actions and inertial effects to potentially self-sustain motion ..
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Re: MTs, WM2D, and WM Basic Language Script Code

Post by Fletcher »

WaltzCee wrote: Mon Jun 26, 2023 1:15 am

Because of many factors [latency, frictions, etc.] an OOB contraption needs the PM, yet it has no such dependencies.
Trues that .. fwiw latency and lag are the same thing in my mind - and it gets worse as rpm increases in an OOB system - that's why Wubbly commented that as rpm increases the system COM moves in the wrong direction for sustaining imbalance (paraphrased), which working with sims reinforces the dynamic factors to take into account ..

If a Prime Mover can handle the latency factor of weights relocating (within itself) then you have a winner WC ..
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Re: MTs, WM2D, and WM Basic Language Script Code

Post by WaltzCee »

.
I want to talk about this, Fletcher.
that's why Wubbly commented that as rpm increases the system COM moves in the wrong direction for s
&
If a Prime Mover can handle the latency factor of weights relocating (within itself) then you have a winner WC ..
.
wrt the gradient between different power levels of equvilent energies. The higher the frequency, the more power. If you want to term it a mechanism, I've SIM'ed it. This is the Bruce Lee of mechanisms.

Image

This is 3 foot, 300 rpm. The CoM is tracking reasonably circular, yet it is more high frequency than the disk it's riding on, causing it to be generated.

The mechanism is the simple machine I thought I discovered. You may remember, Fletcher. I don't know what to call it. I think the control system to harvest and use that more power would be a mechanical nightmare. Look at the control system on Elon's Induction motor. Try and duplicate that mechanically.

I wouldn't want to pay the engineer by the hour to do that work. That's a career, a government job
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Re: MTs, WM2D, and WM Basic Language Script Code

Post by Fletcher »

Hi Walt .. what I'm seeing in your attachment is a roughly circular track that the system COM follows ..

Altho you say it is on a 3 ft wheel I can't tell what the diameter of that circular COM track is - I'd guess quite small and you've enlarged it to show the track detail ..

What you appear to show is one revolution of the disk at 300 rpm - iow's one revolution in 0.2 secs, which supports the contention that the sys COM diameter and circumference traveled is very small indeed iinm ..

Next, the saw tooth shape of the track on the down-going side - it appears to have the same amplitude but the oscillation time step appears to get larger and larger as it descends - and we get greater track shape detail as it descends ..

My conclusion at this point is that it is some "bounced between pillar and post" (oscillating) mechanism with no contact friction losses etc, but I could very well be wrong and it is just a guess ..

I'll have to take your word on it showing higher frequencies and what that means in terms of power output etc .. it's above my pay grade !

Best -f
Last edited by Fletcher on Mon Jun 26, 2023 9:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MTs, WM2D, and WM Basic Language Script Code

Post by johannesbender »

Fletcher wrote: Sun Jun 25, 2023 11:37 pm
WaltzCee wrote: .. Good posts as usual, Fletcher. One criteria of a prime mover is it has to move. I've made so many mechanisms that fit that bill. If I were wondering if the contraption is it, I'd SIM it on a 3 foot disk with a motor at the CoR and spin it up to 300 rpm.
  • It should still move.
There is a gradient between rotational & translational energies. That idea/principle can be embodied in all sorts of mechanics to make a prime mover.
Yes, imo also, the Prime Mover mechanism has to move, and it does that by losing GPE (gradient) .. I use a 1 or 2 meter diameter backing disk but don't often attach a motor drive etc .. Cf's usually pin any weights to the rim (so they can't move) well before 300 rpm in my sims, certainly not unaffected at 9 mill rpms for sure ..
WaltzCee wrote:If you found what I think you found, it will move itself. You won't have to feed that prime mover motion into any OB contraption. I SIM'ed 8 mechanisms and had that puppy spinning at 9 million rpm. No frictions, etc, yet impervious to c.f. Self started.
Yes, I predict the mech should be able to move itself and be relatively unaffected by Cf's thru quite a wide range of rpms (within reason) .. at this stage I still have it cobbled to an OOB subsystem in that they share the same wheel interior but they do not physically interact/touch in any way - atm it appears any conservative OOB system will work for causing an initial torque movement which the Prime Mover mech then capitalizes on - even just spheres on tracks or cages at right angles to the rim moving just a couple of inches will do, or rim sliding weights between stops etc - can't get any simpler than that .. after that the OOB system is pretty much along for the ride like a flywheel if I am right about this ..

I am not so confident that the separate OOB subsytsem can be engineered out of the design altogether (it being included neatly fits B's. clues so meeting his claim of solving the age old mystery of PM) .. I'll have to see if I can simplify some more and make it a one-shoe-fits-all Prime Mover apparatus at some later stage, but right now that is a secondary task for further development if successful with the first .. obviously then, mine won't self-start without the aid of the OOB subsystems input - but I could hand position just the Prime Mover mech and it would move when a gravity gradient is in effect but right now I believe it needs the feedback loop of actions and inertial effects to potentially self-sustain motion ..
WaltzCee wrote:Now, HSAT (having said all that), I think I've discovered something even cooler.

Honestly, I'm getting lazy Fletcher. I will get it built and report back, but I'm not setting any deadlines. :)
Discovered something "cooler" than that - get out of here ! .. that's some dopamine rush goin on at your place lol ..
Fletcher , Could you perhaps clear up your theory here a little more ?
It would seem to me almost like your saying any system that loses PE to producer torque would suffice , but then my mind leaps towards a spring can cause torque, or is it gravity specific torque as in levers ? or do you mean its torque specific from weight ? im not clear on what you mean ?
Last edited by johannesbender on Mon Jun 26, 2023 11:08 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: MTs, WM2D, and WM Basic Language Script Code

Post by johannesbender »

WaltzCee wrote: Sat Jun 24, 2023 1:26 am .
They asked Nikola Tesla if he was angry that they stole his ideas and he answered,
  • No. I'm angry they had
    no ideas of their own.
There is an imbalance between the stator & rotor, yet it needs to be plugged into a power source to cause that imbalance to exist and be driven.

Some stumble on the idea of the gradient in orthogonal forces and phase shifting and imagine they've discovered some great mystery of creation. and they're the only ones that know it!

too funny.

Nikola's motor (as I understand it) was a single phase shift. Elon's motor is 6 phased, iconically represented by the star of David.

I used to suppose sacred geometry was a human contrivance and didn't think much of it. I still think it's man made but traces it's roots back to the observations of the cult of Pythagóras.

That's where Bessler found 'his' ideas.
WaltzCee ,i am no Bessler scholar and dont really remember everything about him , could you perhaps provide me with a link to this where it shows Bessler found his ideas from that?
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Re: MTs, WM2D, and WM Basic Language Script Code

Post by johannesbender »

Fletcher wrote: Mon Jun 26, 2023 1:28 am
WaltzCee wrote: Mon Jun 26, 2023 1:15 am

Because of many factors [latency, frictions, etc.] an OOB contraption needs the PM, yet it has no such dependencies.
Trues that .. fwiw latency and lag are the same thing in my mind - and it gets worse as rpm increases in an OOB system - that's why Wubbly commented that as rpm increases the system COM moves in the wrong direction for sustaining imbalance (paraphrased), which working with sims reinforces the dynamic factors to take into account ..

If a Prime Mover can handle the latency factor of weights relocating (within itself) then you have a winner WC ..
Or , Fletcher what if you apply Occam's razor :
1) Perhaps the RPM was limited by the exact way the mechanisms functioned , and unlike mechanism on a disc being RPM driven by a motor , those mechanism drove the discs' rpm instead.
2) Perhaps the RPM was governed , and never exceeded its functional limit.
3) Perhaps weights did not relocate.
4) ?
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Re: MTs, WM2D, and WM Basic Language Script Code

Post by johannesbender »

no comment..
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