Sam Peppiatt wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 11:38 pm
You must be reading my mind, Waltcy.-----------Sam
PS There is only one toggle at 9:00 and one at 3:00. One for each drum.
Thanks for the post Walt. That's a nice diagram. I guess I wasn't envisioning it the same, but I see what's going on here.
Are you going to share a picture of your build Sam or are you going to wait until further testing reveals whether you have a runner or not?
I need to get a sketch done of my MT18 idea, but I had to fix the car this pm so I can take my family member to some important training at the Veteran's Hospital Tuesday.
I don't think a lot of Veterans realize the level of help that is available at the VA if you just let them treat you. The USA spends quite a bit of money supporting their health. I just wish they would be as serious about their homeless ranks.
Sam Peppiatt wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 11:38 pm
You must be reading my mind, Waltcy.-----------Sam
PS There is only one toggle at 9:00 and one at 3:00. One for each drum.
Thanks for the post Walt. That's a nice diagram. I guess I wasn't envisioning it the same, but I see what's going on here.
Are you going to share a picture of your build Sam or are you going to wait until further testing reveals whether you have a runner or not?
I need to get a sketch done of my MT18 idea, but I had to fix the car this pm so I can take my family member to some important training at the Veteran's Hospital Tuesday.
I don't think a lot of Veterans realize the level of help that is available at the VA if you just let them treat you. The USA spends quite a bit of money supporting their health. I just wish they would be as serious about their homeless ranks.
Homeless shelters treat Veterans differently. That is they have 2 years of support at no expense to them. Non-Veterans are treated differently.
The support the V.A. offers; https://www.va.gov/homeless/
I've been there and know what was offered. And at 150kg,, you're on your own. You weigh 330 lbs., right?
Last edited by UbWe on Mon Aug 21, 2023 2:18 am, edited 5 times in total.
Pretty sure you have already mentioned you realised the number of weights on the left and their position outgunned your OB weights on the right.
The important part of Besslers wheel wasn't a specific mechanism, or combining MTs that magically make a runner.
Besslers wheel had an OB component, in which he stated his weights were lifted. The lifting costs energy, the energy comes from somewhere. (In our modern era, we could most probably bypass the OB portion of his wheel, once we know the other part of the equation.)
So we need to steal energy from the environment (Gravity is not energy), or create energy with OU. (None of Besslers diagrams show OU.) And, nothing personal, but I don't see extra energy in your design either.
This isn't too far away from my MT18 deviant idea. I see the similarities and I do like this design since it's a bit more organic and not just all rigid mechanical movements. Do you have any plans to build this? Hit the discount fishing pole bin at Walmart! :)
Tarsier79 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 21, 2023 3:38 am
Pretty sure you have already mentioned you realised the number of weights on the left and their position outgunned your OB weights on the right.
The important part of Besslers wheel wasn't a specific mechanism, or combining MTs that magically make a runner.
Besslers wheel had an OB component, in which he stated his weights were lifted. The lifting costs energy, the energy comes from somewhere. (In our modern era, we could most probably bypass the OB portion of his wheel, once we know the other part of the equation.)
So we need to steal energy from the environment (Gravity is not energy), or create energy with OU. (None of Besslers diagrams show OU.) And, nothing personal, but I don't see extra energy in your design either.
Consider torque and not the number of lever weights on each side of the wheel. Yes, there are 5 lever weights on the left versus 4 on the right. The left weights are detected at the the point where their levers mount onto the nested parallelograms and not their actual positions as shown in the diagram -- i.e., near the edge of the grindstone. This happens because the levers are not resting on the corresponding rim stops, so the system only sees a mass from where it hangs off of the parallelogram. Consequently the torque of the left weights is small because the grindstone radius is much shorter in comparison to the wheel radius.
On the right side, three of the lever weights are resting on the rim stops and produce a large torque derived from the radius of the wheel. The combined right torque will be greater than the combined left torque. In this rotating wheel there will always be a torque differential between the two sides as a result of the left levers pulling away from their rim stops and the way the levers mount at the edge of the grindstone. Plus the unique nested parallelograms create a CW torque further aiding rotation (and lift past 12:00).
Last edited by mryy on Mon Aug 21, 2023 4:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
JUBAT wrote: ↑Mon Aug 21, 2023 3:57 am
This isn't too far away from my MT18 deviant idea. I see the similarities and I do like this design since it's a bit more organic and not just all rigid mechanical movements. Do you have any plans to build this? Hit the discount fishing pole bin at Walmart! :)
I agree that the design has an organic feel. Once I am satisfied with it (and I believe I am pretty close) I will start on a construction blueprint. Since the beginning of this thread the concept has gone through drastic evolution. Had I tested/built much earlier I would have needlessly expended resources. Our minds are wondrous tools for testing too ...
For sure! I can envision many designs in my head and know they won't work so I don't even have to try them. I've run across a few that I've mocked up with cardboard which I just couldn't wrap my head around. It was really cool to see how they operated and confirmed once again - a non-working device, but how and why it didn't work taught me some important lessons.
One of the problems I've observed with a wheel is how when you bring the weights closer to the center of the wheel, they also bunch up and get closer together. So I started thinking if there is a way to bring weights closer to the center but still maintain the same spacing. Boy if that isn't a mind-screw. I was thinking - what would happen if the weights going farther out on the decent actually became closer together and the weights on the ascent got farther apart. It got me to thinking about arced rods that when slid through the center would accomplish just that. Also, curved ball tracks would have the same effect. 4 diagonal grooves would also accomplish this...as the weights move towards the center, they spread out. As the other weights move out, they come closer together.
An idea does not a runner make, but at the very least it's fun having a think to try and make the weights do things they normally wouldn't do or that others possible haven't thought of.
The left weights are detected at the the point where their levers mount onto the nested parallelograms and not their actual positions as shown in the diagram -- i.e., near the edge of the grindstone.
I think you might be mistaken there. The weight is felt where it is. Just because it rests on a rim stop, or rests on a "hub stop" doesn't change where the weight actually is. What determines a weights leverage, is actually how far it moves up or down compared to its opposite friend, not always its horizontal position.
If it was ONE pivot mount per weight-lever I can see the validity of your views. The difference here I think is that at the grindstone/hub edge my concept has two (pairs if viewed in 3D) pivot mounts sharing a single lever. Further it's a double pivot mount inside another double pivot mount (nested parallelograms). Hammermen C & D of the Toys Page to me hint of this. I suspect a two-pivot mount changes how a weight is felt by the system. The notes of MT10 mention the need for a correct handle of the lever at the hub. B. spoke of a central small-radius grindstone being the principle of his machine. There is something hidden in that grindstone, albeit of a simple understandable nature, to which the levers are attached. And it isn't a straightforward single-pivot attachment ...
Has anyone here ever mounted a lever to a 2-pivot mechanism? Maybe they can share their thoughts.
mrry,
You are very inventive, you have good ideas but, this isn't one of them. You did me a me a big favor, that seams like a long time ago now. But for that, I probably wouldn't say any thing. Try a few things, I could be wrong------------------Sam
All you have to do is two, (two arms), never more than that.
Last edited by Sam Peppiatt on Mon Aug 21, 2023 4:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mrry, the good thing about a specific setup like the one you describe and makes up one part of your design, is that you can test your theory without building an entire wheel.
You have a hypothesis. How are you going to test it?
agor95 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 20, 2023 8:33 pm
Thus the mass is on two ramps one vertically and the other radially.
Where the mass is pulled down and slightly forward in the vertical and in the radial.
It is odd most studies of the above results in 'Calculate P.E' and used that for the K.E. at the end'.
Just ignore the part in the middle. What happens in the middle when the mass is a ball; is it rubber or metal?
Does that affect the end result?
Last edited by agor95 on Mon Aug 21, 2023 8:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
[MP] Mobiles that perpetuate - external energy allowed
Sam Peppiatt wrote: ↑Mon Aug 21, 2023 4:43 pm
mrry,
You are very inventive, you have good ideas but, this isn't one of them. You did me a me a big favor, that seams like a long time ago now. But for that, I probably wouldn't say any thing. Try a few things, I could be wrong------------------Sam
All you have to do is two, (two arms), never more than that.
Thanks for the advice. Feel free to offer your opinion about what you believe is wrong with this design. Do substantiate your criticism though. That goes for everybody. I don't mind at all. In fact I welcome it as it allows me to consider other perspectives. And Shammy old boy,
