The concrete arguments that Bessler was a fraud

[agor95]

You confuse believing and knowing like all dunces !!!
Keep trying to make people believe you know...

Could that be used too categorise others here?

[gravitationallychallenged]

I do not wish to exchange with you, I thought you understood...
Your words are so hollow that they resonate... :)
You confuse believing and knowing like all dunces !!!
Keep trying to make people believe you know..

Insulting Georg by referring to him as a dunce displays an incredible amount of arrogance. I may disagree with ideas expressed in this forum but I always treat contributors with respect. Members who are working to solve the mystery and have made positive contributions towards that goal deserve nothing less. Georg has proven his intelligence as a contributor on this forum and has provided many valuable insights. I've never read anything submitted by him that would be perceived as rude or obnoxious towards others. It would serve you well to take Georg seriously. He knows a lot more than you think.

[thx4]

Hi all, I did meet Georg, and we exchanged and experimented a bit, his concept...
Georg says he has filed a patent, I do not know on what and why LOL..
I asked Georg to provide me with the right dimensions the weight etc, I understand at this moment that Georg has nothing, and that he counts on my experiments to conclude, he adds that B has sought for 40 years LOL.
Georg sees resonance everywhere...
So I take the decision to distance myself from the resonance. :)

It was my first rather light answer with the great class, but the gentleman insists, now if you want to know why I react like this you have two solutions,
1) you invite to your home the dunce full of himself and his knowledge.
2) you ask me in private why.

Now I'm closing the bin. End of the story.

Have a nice day.
A++

[agor95]

Hello thx4

I appreciate your feeling of disappointment.

There is a lot of that here. It's how you come to terms with it that makes the man or woman.

Regards

[justsomeone]

Btt... thanks Ecc.

[eccentrically1]

people can showcase their ideas on how Bessler faked it and how he got Karl to go along. I would also be interested to know anyone's thoughts on why Bessler put his neck on the line. Can anyone duplicate the actions of Bessler's wheel in a fraudulent way?

I guess no one has anything to add?

I'll have to find it in a different thread; I asked Chat how B might have faked it. It was full of ideas, but since it doesn't know all the details some of them weren't plausible. Maybe if someone gave it more of the story it would come up with something else. I'll look in a bit.

[eccentrically1]

Found it


What are the possibilities for for Bessler’s wheel to have been a hoax? How would he have defrauded the witnesses?

ChatGPT
Bessler's wheel, also known as the perpetual motion machine, was an alleged device that could produce unlimited energy without any external source of power. However, there is no scientific evidence to support the claim that such a device can exist, and the laws of physics suggest that it is impossible.

There are several possibilities for how Bessler may have defrauded the witnesses. One possibility is that he may have used hidden sources of power, such as batteries or compressed air, to keep the wheel moving. He may have also used sleight of hand to make it appear as though the wheel was moving on its own.

Another possibility is that Bessler may have simply convinced the witnesses that the wheel was working through his own charisma and persuasive abilities. He may have used a combination of confidence, showmanship, and misdirection to make the witnesses believe that the wheel was working, even if it was not.

Finally, it is also possible that Bessler may have simply lied about the wheel's capabilities and never actually demonstrated a working prototype. In this scenario, he may have relied on the gullibility of his investors and the general public to keep the myth of the perpetual motion machine alive.

Regardless of how Bessler may have defrauded his witnesses, it is clear that the laws of physics make it impossible for a perpetual motion machine to exist. Therefore, any claims of such a device should be met with skepticism and scientific scrutiny.



User
There were no batteries then (1712-1725).
No sounds of compressed air flow.
The demonstrations were set up to specifically address any issues of sleight of hand , misdirection, showmanship, etc., to rule out those types of hoax. The witnesses were allowed to try to stop the wheel and it required great effort. So the wheel definitely was turning.
The final test took place in a locked, sealed, and windowless room in a castle that was guarded night and day, and after 54 days when the seal was broken the wheel was still rotating.

ChatGPT
Thank you for the additional information about the specific circumstances of Bessler's demonstrations.

Despite the unusual conditions of the demonstrations, the fact remains that a perpetual motion machine violates the laws of thermodynamics, which state that energy cannot be created or destroyed, only converted from one form to another. Therefore, it is highly unlikely that Bessler's wheel was a legitimate perpetual motion machine.

There are still several possibilities for how Bessler may have defrauded the witnesses. For example, he may have hidden a power source within the locked, sealed, and guarded room. Alternatively, he may have used some other form of hidden mechanism to keep the wheel turning, such as a hidden lever or mechanism that was only visible from a certain angle.

It is also possible that the witnesses were simply mistaken or misled in their observations. Human perception can be easily fooled, and it is possible that the witnesses were seeing something other than what they thought they were seeing.

Without further evidence, it is difficult to determine exactly how Bessler may have defrauded his witnesses. However, the fact that perpetual motion machines violate the laws of physics suggests that his device was likely a hoax in some way.

There's the problem; chat sees it too.

[daxwc]

Without further evidence, it is difficult to determine exactly how Bessler may have defrauded his witnesses. However, the fact that perpetual motion machines violate the laws of physics suggests that his device was likely a hoax in some way.

Ecc1: There's the problem; chat sees it too.

You know very well ChatGPT has been trained to say this. Has ChatGPT been trained to keep an open mind? Seems more like asking Polly if he wants a cracker.

[Robinhood46]

Do you think ChatGPT is capable of recognising the cognitive bias when forcing the decision upon ourselves, of the possibility or impossibility of PM?
Why couldn't we just carry on not knowing indefinitely?
What would we have had to acknowledge, when we considered the eventuality that it is possible?

[daxwc]

My point is in science, an open mind is crucial. Scientists embrace new evidence and adjust their theories when needed. Science is about curiosity and discovery. Theories are not fixed; they evolve with fresh data. This adaptability makes science a powerful tool for understanding the world. So, when theories change, it's a sign of science's strength, not weakness. It keeps the door open to a more accurate understanding of nature.

[agor95]

When the impossible is proved possible an energy source will be contrived.
So a device in constant motion will not be a perpetual motion machine.
Because it has an energy source therefore it does not breaking the laws of physics. QED

[eccentrically1]

Without further evidence, it is difficult to determine exactly how Bessler may have defrauded his witnesses. However, the fact that perpetual motion machines violate the laws of physics suggests that his device was likely a hoax in some way.

Ecc1: There's the problem; chat sees it too.

You know very well ChatGPT has been trained to say this. Has ChatGPT been trained to keep an open mind? Seems more like asking Polly if he wants a cracker.

It isn’t a conspiracy against PM.
The overwhelming consensus is it was a hoax. That’s what the training produced.

Has ChatGPT been trained to keep an open mind?

That is a good question for chat.

Scientists embrace new evidence and adjust their theories when needed.

Besslers wheels aren’t a reason to adjust any theories.
The scientific method is what science uses to do that, not a pm machine that was never revealed.

[TGM]

Many thoughts and ideas here. I'll leave it at this:

If the axle was fixed and did not rotate, I believe his device could work.

If the axle rotated, where there is no opportunity for a fixed superstructure, it would not work, and he was a fraud.

A fixed superstructure would allow separate forces to interact without zeroing each other out. It would allow overbalance in a gravity well.

[Tarsier79]

I guarantee, if you can make a wheel work with a fixed axle, you will also be able to make one where the axles turn.

[Tarsier79]

To theorise on how Bessler defrauded everyone, we first need to know how many watts the wheel required to turn at its constant speed and make about 8 impacts per rotation.

If we assume it was fraud, his wheel could have had 2 modes, eg. a power mode CW and a long run mode CCW. This would enable the power tests, including lifting a pile of bricks up. The bricks could be lowered on the other mode in reverse as it didn't require any power, just speed regulation.

The other factor is the translocation. Bessler removed all the weights and reinstalled them after the translocation. There would not have been two sets of stampers, water screws etc. So he could have changed modes here.

Even though Bessler fervently denied a spring wound mechanism, for me it seems this would be the most likely way to store the amount of energy required for a long run test. (Even though an advanced wound clock of the day might only run for a week.