The concrete arguments that Bessler was a fraud

[eccentrically1]

Under no load, it would not require much. It’s difficult to estimate without all the specs.
It could be less than 5 watts depending on its mass?

I’ve never trusted the power demonstrations mainly because they weren’t more than a few seconds of load. They could have been staged to his liking to not arouse suspicion (the loads were carefully matched to the short term power output for example). I’m not sure if the dual power / non power modes would have been noticed but that is a pretty good possibility.
They weren’t satisfied either, hence the long run.
Since that was conducted the way it was, there was opportunity for fraud that there wasn’t in the short tests.

[daxwc]

Since that was conducted the way it was, there was opportunity for fraud that there wasn’t in the short tests.

I still don't understand what you don't like about the long run was conducted? There was guard watching guard? The guards could hear it run the whole time.

You don't like it because you think they are too stupid to secure a room?

Do you have proof of fraud?

It couldn't of run because it can't isn't science either.

You would be better off telling us the maid turned it the whole time at least that is an accused fact of the situation.

It is just about as absurd to say it was fraud as to say it actually ran.

[daxwc]

They inspected the room and the wheel for two days before it was locked up.

Finally it should be mentioned that right at the outset, before operations got underway, all rooms in the building, above, below, and to the sides of the room where the Wheel was situated, were closely examined by all present; even the heavy beams were examined and found not to be hollow...

Then, with some assistance from the Master himself, the Inventor, the Wheel was brought (page 32) back into motion once more, and still greater security precautions were taken to prevent interference. Not only were all windows locked tight, but also all the doors, including those in the corridor leading to the room where the Wheel was situated. This was all done in Our presence and that of Our accompanying retinue, and guards were posted and seals applied.

Signed, Merseburg, 31st October 1715,
by
Julius Bernhard Von Rohr - Special Commissioner (of
Saxony’s Hochfûrst)
Wolff Dietrick Bose
August Leidenfrost - Councillor to Polish Court and
Elector of Saxony
Carl August Hûbner
M Christoph Semler - Dean of Ulrich (Saxony)
Christoph Buchtà - Councillor at the Hochfûrst’s
Court
M Alb Zũmmermann - Prof. Math
Friedrick Hoffman -
Christian Wolff - Councillor and Mathematician
D Johann Buckhard Mencke - Councillor and Historian
Christian Benit - Prof Math
Johann Jost Walbaum - Prof Math

I don't know ECC1; who is smarter you or Christian Wolff the man who's job it was to find fraud and was actually there?

There was nothing wrong the way the experiment was conducted.

[Robinhood46]

The possibilities for the theory of fraud, get more and more preposterous as they face the factual records of the time.
Sometimes i think they are no different than the flat earthers who suggest there is a ring of ice, with people guarding it, so as to hide the edge from the sceptics.
The maid wasn't in the same castle, that's why they couldn't find her turning a crank. Maybe this is where string theory originated?
If it wasn't that it must have been aliens.
What about Pixies? Has the theory of pixies been thrashed out to eliminate it completely, or is there still some hope in it scientifically explaining the fraud?
I'm running out of reasonable suggestions.

[MrTim]

I still don't understand what you don't like about the long run was conducted? There was guard watching guard? The guards could hear it run the whole time.

According to the Frank Edwards' story, the guards guarding the room thought the duty was a punishment... ;-)

[daxwc]

Professor Allemande reproduced 'sGravesande's reply to this letter. It went
as follows,

'I have deferred writing to you, until I had found the paper which I
wrote the day after I had examined Orffyreus' machine; for although I
remember well all that passed, I believe that a paper, written the day after the
examination, and communicated to His Serene Highness the Landgrave and
to all those who were with him, must have more weight. It was for this
reason that I wished to know how I had expressed my opinion.

'This is what I have heard; they say that a servant under oath, turned
Orffyreus' machine, she being in an adjoining room. I know perfectly well
that Orffyreus is mad, but I have no reason to think him an impostor. I have
never decided whether his machine is an imposture or not, but this I know, as
certainly as anything in the world, that if the servant says the above, she tells
a great falsehood.

If there was fraud it seems it was contained inside the wheel itself.

[Tarsier79]

Under no load, it would not require much. It’s difficult to estimate without all the specs.
It could be less than 5 watts depending on its mass?

Perhaps, but I feel like it would have to be more. Additionally, to get the reported acceleration, it would have to have power on demand. Perhaps if he got it to have power on demand, it wouldn't have to have 2 modes? Even power on demand could have revolutionized mechanical actuation.

The wattage isn't specifically depending on mass. It depends on power lost/frictions/inefficiencies. It also depends on how much power was used making impacts, although Bessler stated this was due to the driving weights. The weight of a 12 foot wooden frame would have been reasonably high, even without weights. More weights = more inertia, so the biggest hurdle would be to get it moving in the first place.

The inertia described is different from "gripping the axle" a few times to slow it down and lifting a man off his feet if he grabbed the circumference. Perhaps Wagners reference was more to do with the bolts that were screwed in and out to regulate the speed.

[Tarsier79]

Without going into too many specifics, Chat GPT suggests a method of power on demand spring wound mechanism:

Traditional Escapement Mechanism:...
Variable Regulator: ...
Clutch Mechanism:...
Load-Sensing Mechanism: ...

....a purely mechanical load-sensing mechanism, you can consider using a mechanical governor or centrifugal clutch.

[Tarsier79]

Besslers last demonstration wheel in approx 1717: Assume it is 12 foot, 18 inches thick and has an 8 inch axle and weighs around 100kg in total. Estimate how much power it would take to make it continually rotate at 26rpm

ChatGPT:

Estimating the power required to make Bessler's last demonstration wheel continuously rotate at 26 revolutions per minute (rpm) based on the provided dimensions and weight is a challenging task due to several factors, including the wheel's design, friction, and efficiency. .......
I=21​×100kg×(1.8288m)2≈198.94kgm2
Now, plug the values into the power formula:
P=2×3.14159×(26/60)×198.9460 W≈26.58 WattsP=602×3.14159×(26/60)×198.94​W≈26.58Watts
So, in this simplified scenario with no friction or energy loss, it would take approximately 26.58 watts of power to maintain the wheel's motion at 26 rpm. However, this estimation is highly idealized and does not account for the complex mechanical and physical realities of perpetual motion devices, which are not achievable based on current scientific principles.

(unchecked calculations due to time restraints)

[Tarsier79]

7.2 megajoules) of energy required to maintain the wheel rotating at 26 rpm for one hour while overcoming the assumed frictional forces.

I think we can assume GTP is f@*king with me again...

And with some more prompting:

So, based on these estimations, the power required to overcome air resistance for the drum-shaped Bessler wheel, rotating at 26 rpm, is approximately 263.09 watts (or about 0.263 kilowatts).

For me this seems a bit high for an efficient mechanism, just overcoming wind resistance....12 feet is a lot of wind resistance, and 26rpm is relatively fast for a large wooden drum.

[John Collins]

@MrTim, Frank Edwards’ account of the legend is full of inaccuracies and he was a proven advocate of ‘poetic license’ and seemingly never let the facts get in the way of a good story. He was, like our erstwhile colleague Ken, also a promoter of UFOs, the paranormal and psychics etc.

JC

[daxwc]

Fourth wheel - Kassel (Weissenstein Castle)
So, it takes approximately 1.154 seconds for a point on the wheel to move from 12 PM to 6 PM when the wheel has a 12-foot diameter and is rotating at 26 rpm

It takes approximately 0.8631 seconds for an object to fall freely from a height of 12 feet under the influence of gravity.

So it is still slower than gravity but is getting up there at 75%

[Tarsier79]

Just had a quick read of DT. The Kassel wheel ran for 6 weeks without anyone touching it, so continuing along the fraud path:

So if I throw a dart and hit a number (There are a lot of buts, and we might come to a better number later), Lets say the wheel requires 30W to spin and "make noise". Over a 6 week period, this would require 30,240 Wh of energy.

So in terms of Potential energy: how high could I theoretically lift 100kg with 30,240 Wh
ChatGPT:

......So, with 30,240 watt-hours of energy, you could theoretically lift a 100kg mass to a height of approximately 110,935.88 meters (about 111 kilometers) on Earth, assuming ideal conditions and neglecting losses due to friction and other factors.

Even if the wheel only used 5W (older tvs can use that much in standby), that is still equivalent to a PE of 100KG lifted 18.5 Km.

From this alone: If the Kassel wheel was a fraud, It was not internal. If someone was turning it from another room, It would require a team of strong men.

[Tarsier79]

how much energy is in a normal tesla car
Chat GPT

Tesla Model 3:
Standard Range Plus Model 3: Around 54 kWh.....As of my last knowledge update in September 2021, the battery pack in a Tesla Model 3 Standard Range Plus is estimated to weigh around 450 kilograms

[Tarsier79]

I have asked GPT a number of times, and even used a MDF flywheel with the same dimensions and using an (incorrect) value of 100kg. It Keeps giving me the wind resistance as requiring 267watts to keep it spinning at 26rpm.

If this is the case:

So, operating a device at 267 watts for 6 weeks would consume a total of 269,136 watt-hours (or about 269.14 kilowatt-hours, kWh) of energy.

So apparently I need 5 x Tesla model 3 cars to power a Bessler-wheel sized flywheel for 6 weeks, just to overcome air resistance on the rotating structure at 26rpm.

Any comments?