The concrete arguments that Bessler was a fraud

[daxwc]

They were not that powerful because if the load got to big they used dogs.

[eccentrically1]

That isn’t a spit turned by heat from the fire like the other one. It’s designed to be turned by sn animal. The chimney might be too small or something.

[thx4]

1. Karl was in on the fraud.

Karl could confirm to the Tsar that there was no fraud, that he was the guarantor, and in fact become a guarantee argument, but he did nothing in this direction, which is astonishing. He might even have considered remuneration. Karl's behavior remains strange.
Against solid argument, B would have given his life, if fraud were proven... that's heavy stuff 😊
He believed in God... God who would have suggested everything to him, he says...
I really think he had a tilt, on a mechanical event, that we don't suppose, because we don't have all the pieces of the puzzle in hand...

[daxwc]

Karl could confirm to the Tsar that there was no fraud, that he was the guarantor, and in fact become a guarantee argument,..

Was that normal course of action for a Prince?

[Tarsier79]

I completely agree with you THX. Was just trying to put all the options out on the table.

Perhaps we should entertain the thought for a second?

[daxwc]

Karl’s attestment says all that needs to be said from a Prince. Was it attestation or attestment which was done? There is a difference.

[John Collins]

Fascinating as Bessler’s Wheel is to us, to Karl it was just another project to sponsor once he had satisfied himself it was genuine.

It was common knowledge that Karl had authenticated Bessler’s wheel and had issued a certificate accordingly.

Karl had sponsored Denis Papin’s experiments with steam power, but sought a device capable of pumping water back up his 350 metre cascade. Denis Papin, Thomas Savery and Thomas Newcomen were each unable to provide a solution and despite Karl’s interest he had already dismissed Bessler’s Wheel as a potential winner.

He was happy to sponsor new inventions but spent little time other than providing the space to exhibit the devices and attend high level demonstrations. He was extremely busy politically and also very interested in new industrial processes such as metal processing and porcelain manufacturing. He was a willing to fund new science but not interested in doing more with Bessler’s wheel than what he had done.

JC

[thx4]

Just a thought; Karl is the only one to have seen the inside of the wheel, but we don't know if this fact remained a secret between the two protagonists. Who described the scene?
If the scene had been made public, Wagner wouldn't have existed!

[thx4]

It was common knowledge that Karl had authenticated Bessler’s wheel and had issued a certificate accordingly.
JC

Thanks JC, we posted at the same time...
So everyone knew that B's wheel was authentic, all validated by Karl.
So Wagner's behavior insulted Karl?
I find all this hard to believe...

The certificate is signed by people who have seen the wheel in operation, but not the inside...the doubt persists.
Karl won't say he saw the inside, that changes everything, it's a secret between the two, once again who described the scene or B shows Karl...

[daxwc]

Thx4: So Wagner's behavior insulted Karl?
I find all this hard to believe...

Karl was the Landgrave of Hesse-Kassel and was now Johann Bessler's patron; Wagner was from Saxony and obviously had a different patron and source of support.

[daxwc]

Thx4: The certificate is signed by people who have seen the wheel in operation, but not the inside...the doubt persists.
Karl won't say he saw the inside, that changes everything, it's a secret between the two, once again who described the scene or B shows Karl...

If my memory is correct at the time of the long test Karl hadn't seen inside the wheel. There is in the forum history a whole discussion on this topic.

[thx4]

Thanks Daxwc, I'll look into it when I get the chance. One thing's for sure and I can imagine the scene, Karl saw it but surely didn't remain without questions about the mechanism, the astonishment of the simplicity etc...

[eccentrically1]

“However, the machine that has been sold will not be included in the treatise, as my intention is to sell only one specific type of machine, not all of them. I possess a variety of machines, each operating on distinct principles, including those driven by weights, balls, springs, internal gears, internal water, oil, alcohol, and wind." - PM 124

Doesn’t even make sense.

Which one did he sell?
He admits that he has machines driven by water, oil, alcohol and wind. Those have possibilities-- weights, balls, springs and gears don't.
Perhaps he switched machines, and the distinct operating principle, for the long test.

[daxwc]

Ecc1: Which one did he sell?

That was hypothetical in context it was in case his perpetual motion wheel sold before he got done the treatise drawings. So I guess it is whatever is causing the overbalance. Seems to me the drawings are junk; they are equivalent of email spam.

" It will provide a comprehensive history of the development of my perpetual motion machine. Anyone acquiring this treatise will be able to select and construct any machine of their choice, incorporating my invention.

"

[johannesbender]

I highly doubt that the untranslated text were written in such a manner to suggest he had other working machines with different principles , i suspect he meant he had a lot of different machine designs based on different principles but he had only one type he wanted to sell (the working type).
And when it is sold it would not be included in the treatise (obviously he would not have the right and it would not be fair to include it).