The concrete arguments that Bessler was a fraud

[daxwc]

my ‘principle of excess weight’, is
NOT just an external appendage, an ‘added-on device’

It is not just an external appendage but all his PM wheels need it? Am I interpreting it wrong?

[johannesbender]

I always thought of it as a statement to deny that its just a device coupled externally to drive the wheel with its weights , like the external pendulums or some other external device and linkage coupled up to the wheel , dont know.

[Tarsier79]

My chief suspect for fraud was a self winding type of clockwork...

By self winding you mean like the atmos clock? I think it is a big ask trying to get a 12 foot wheel rotating at 26rpm from atmospheric changes. I don't think you will get enough power. A large pre-wound spring would be more likely, but still unlikely I think. At least an atmospheric clockwork could theoretically be considered a PM machine.

Drebbel did build atmospheric clocks starting around 1600, and lived in a time in Prague, so some of his works might have existed less than 200km from Bessler. Bessler did visit Prague and met with a Jesuit priest and a Rabbi to search for PM, but does not mention that he found it there. According to PMAAMS, Bessler then visited Holland (Where Drebbel was born), England (Where Drebbel primarily lived) and Ireland(sorry, no link). Bessler didn't find PM till quite a bit of time after this journey.

[johannesbender]

I was thinking about something similar to
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_watch , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Vide ... d_V.2.webm

Except my thoughts cant get past how would the rotor be done on a vertical plane only , but in a manner i am reminded of the big pendulum in 13 but even pendulum lose energy and how would it ever be enough to wind enough PE back ,and also output enough power , i have thought about gyroscopic motion to resist motion to wind too , but honestly i cant really come up with a solid fraud hypothesis that makes sense though.

[Tarsier79]

Yes, ultimately these are the same as the atmos clock, except instead of an atmospheric chamber, they use a pendulum.

These units both conform to COE, so a pendulum swinging will never create enough power to run the wheel, reset the pendulum and output power.

[johannesbender]

Exactly , human/animal power or a natural power source like running water or moving wind could continue for an extended period ,but mechanical sources that can sustain motion for such long durations while outputting work and in the face of energy losses without external intervention is unheard of (would be against the laws) , in the case of the watches its the motion of your arms and wrists that gives the winding weights PE again.

Edit to add : my only thought for fraud in such a manner was , if the wheel was rolled along during translocations , then such an internal weight could wind some PE back , but the bidirectionality was specifically engineered for this exact reason of countering the springs allegations , unless the springs were able to be bidirectional and bidirectionally woundable too , but it still leaves you with duration and output power issues.

[thx4]

J'ai eu beau faire des prières, pour essayer de convaincre dieu de nous fournir les plans comme il a fait pour B, toujours rien sur mon bureau, même pas un peu de poussières.
Il faut dire que je ne crois pas en dieu, ça n'aide pas 🙂
J'en conclu que les prières sont vaines, et qu'il faut oublier B, se reporter uniquement aux témoignages et encore.
Entre ceux qui voulaient savoir et ceux qui ont vu, un gros ménage nous attend...
Mes projets sur B avancent par effacements des idées les plus cons aux plus tordues. Finalement il en reste encore une que je vous présenterai l'année prochaine.
Je vous souhaite à tous de très bonnes fêtes et à l'année prochaine.

No matter how many prayers I said, trying to convince God to provide us with the plans as he did for B, still nothing on my desk, not even a bit of dust.
It has to be said that I don't believe in God, which doesn't help 🙂
I conclude that prayers are futile, and that we should forget about B, refer only to testimonies and still.
Between those who wanted to know and those who saw, a lot of housework lies ahead...
My projects on B are progressing by erasing the dumbest and most twisted ideas. Finally, there's one more that I'll present to you next year.
I wish you all a very happy holiday season and hope to see you next year.

[thx4]

I'm impressed: viewed 13181 times in 15 days (huge, but no response).
Don't be fooled by appearances... Let's stay Zen, forgive Zombie...😁

[agor95]

When you think on this subject one should ask some basic questions.

Can we prove it one why or another after 300+ years?

Is fraud carried out now on current devices more relevant?

Regards