Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

[Roxaway59]

Yes Fletcher they are being driven by a motor initially then the motor is turned off. They both have air resistance higher than normal and in Algodoo they both increase in speed. I don't take Algodoo too serious I use it mainly as a tool.
Graham

[Fletcher]

Yes, thought so .. from what I've read by others who do know and use the program (like RH46 and Shadow), and are competent, they sometimes comment that it can show anomalous results (as can WM) and needs further investigation, or its just that Algodoo isn't that accurate etc ..

I too, use WM (mainly - used in industry) as a design tool foremost - and if I get something interesting then I simplify it as much as I can by changing out parts and construction techniques etc .. if I am still on the edge of my seat with various formats then it's time to dig even deeper .. part of that process can be to replicate it in another program for comparison, but the deal-breaker litmus test is a real-world build which is the ultimate simulation .. they go hand in hand and one helps the other ateotd ..

[Fletcher]

ETA
Georg was the first I know of to 'publish' the idea of mechanical oscillation.

Mechanical oscillators come up regularly in the B. discussion over all the years I've been on this board, and over at OU.com .. Georg was very vocal about the oscillating principle incorporated in his design here at BW.com - then there was the Stage 2 Oscillator at OU.com etc .. even the "Dominant Flywheel" that Grimer got excited about ..

Mechanical Oscillation takes 3 forms .. every device that starts from one position and returns is an oscillator of sorts ..

1. Free
2. Dampened
3. Forced

Google .. What is a free oscillation?

1. : The oscillation of a body or system with its own natural frequency and under no external influence other than the impulse that initiated the motion. Called also free vibration.

It's not a big stretch to imagine that B's. wheels were (part) mechanical oscillators, except unlike known "free oscillators" (let's use periodic wave motion as an example) their resonance/frequency/harmonics was naturally excited/amplified so that the action lead to a wheel accelerating and gaining in momentum/RKE (i.e. positive reinforcement feed-back loop perhaps) .. and like waves get their Input energy from somewhere else, which can then be transformed to Work Output, so did B's. wheels, imo ..

If you think about it, how else could a runner accelerate and gain momentum without self-excitement of moving parts to transform an energy source into Kinetics ..

..............

[Roxaway59]

Actually Fletcher you have hit the nail on the head because I was thinking along the natural resonant frequency line with those oscillators.

Graham

[WaltzCee]

.
.
[ freeeeee vibration ] courtesy of wikipedia

.
If any want Oleg Alexandrov's Source code (MATLAB) file they can follow this link

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi ... to-license

An interesting pendulum . .. .. .
.
File:Trifilar pendulum.gif
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pasimi

Oscillations can be used in physics to approximate complex interactions, such as those between atoms.

could be some hope for the the
LSAM series if I ever get them built . .. .. .

Looks a bit like Bessler's apology wheel.

[WaltzCee]

.
.

If you think about it, how else could a runner accelerate and gain momentum without self-excitement of moving parts to transform an energy source into Kinetics ..

That's what intrigued me about Sam's binary star model, a flywheel with internal motion.

[SHADOW]

Bonjour Roxaway59,
J'ai visionné vos simulations Agodoo avec intérêt.
Vous lancez l'oscillation avec un moteur dans les trois cas, si vous arrêtez le moteur l'oscillation semble s'entretenir.
hélas elle finie par s'étioler et le dispositif fini par s'arrêter dans les trois cas sous Algodoo.
Je pense que vous êtes sur la bonne voie en privilégiant le jouet Forgerons.
Pour confirmer mon propos sur les simulations Agodoo il faut utiliser la fonction: accélération de l'exécution quand vous lancer la simulation.
J.B

Hello Roxaway59,
I watched your Agodoo simulations with interest.
You start the oscillation with a motor in all three cases, if you stop the motor the oscillation seems to maintain.
Unfortunately, it eventually withers and the device eventually stops in all three cases under Algodoo.
I think you’re on the right track with the Blacksmiths toy.
To confirm my point about Agodoo simulations you have to use the function: execution acceleration when you launch the simulation.
J.B

[Roxaway59]

Hi J.B thanks for the advice on Algodoo. The simulations I am posting at the moment are about exploring features that Besslers wheel may of had and to let other members experiment with in the hope that something more significant can be found and then shared. I appreciate your input.
Graham

[daxwc]

Nice building skills Roxaway59. Wish I had the patience.

I have a couple of questions on you’re the first file you shared.
Why did you build it so small? It is right of the very edge of zoom??

What do the two axles do on the ring the one at 6pm and 12pm? When I tore it apart I cant find a reason.

[Roxaway59]

Hi daxwc, thanks and yes it does take a lot of time and patience working on these things. The simulation was also meant as a design model in the real world that is why it is small and I will be putting some drawings up at some point for anyone who would like to build a real one maybe as an ornament driven by a small geared motor. The axles are there simply because during experiments I found that there was very often a difference in the way that the simulation behaved when fixing the weights.

Graham

[Roxaway59]

Here are some drawings of the first mechanical oscillator for anyone who wishes to build as an ornament or to experiment with. If you build it would you please post the finished design.

[daxwc]

R59: The axles are there simply because during experiments I found that there was very often a difference in the way that the simulation behaved when fixing the weights.

Do you think they gather spin or unbalance?

The simulation was also meant as a design model in the real world that is why it is small

Not sure if this is causing issues in the SIM.

[Roxaway59]

Hi daxwc, I was never really sure but looking at it logically I would say it was because the ones with axles can turn because of air friction and the fixed ones cant. When it comes to overbalanced wheels you can never really take anything for granted and even seemingly insignificant details can make a difference.

Graham

[Roxaway59]

Here are 2 designs in wm2d that seem to show over unity capability for members to check out.

[Fletcher]

.
.

If you think about it, how else could a runner accelerate and gain momentum without self-excitement of moving parts to transform an energy source into Kinetics ..

That's what intrigued me about Sam's binary star model, a flywheel with internal motion.

Putting the spotlight back on our canary MT48 (our flywheel) - it's a dead duck in every way .. something mechanical is added to it and suddenly it is a runner .. that addition would seem to be a mechanical Prime Mover .. but, what does the addition bring to the party ? .. it itself moves under gravity and keeps the overall system imbalance continually regenerating i.e. self-excites so that MT48 can accelerate and gain momentum, and get past the PQ position without stopping, and be a true runner ..

What must the Prime Mover action be ? .. since it must also reset (regain original GPE) itself periodically, just as MT48 must, then it must have an oscillating action that creates the regenerating imbalance condition for the whole-of-system - and then it resets to go again when required .. that Prime Mover mechanical oscillation factor can theoretically be in 2 forms .. 1. directly creating extra impetus (as B. described it) 2. reducing the back-torque which also creates an extra impetus .. neither 'form' breaks Newton's Laws etc if gravity force is the enabler but the excess momentum/RKE outputted is an energy/momentum transformation into Work from the in-situ wheel connected to its wobbling and rotating (akin to vibration/frequency/oscillating) worldly environment ..

............

Sam's wheel had limitations due to inertia - yes, there was an internal weighted movement in and out (though we never saw and pics or photo's) - an oscillating format of sorts - he didn't accept that the rollers rotating in the wheel drums when free to move would not change the system GOM, thus easy to rotate - but when coupled to a "toggle" to influence other outlier weights for imbalance the rollers themselves would also move creating a back-torque, which ultimately was a flawed principle ..

............

B. had a Principle of PM .. this was something purely mechanical (imo) that upset the usual balance of torques (was asymmetric) - and imo it was an oscillating Prime Mover enabled by gravity .. and that indicative action, and construction, can be found in the Toy's Page pics with some lateral thinking (pun intended) and deduction, from first narrowing down the logical general direction to look in, imo ..