Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

[Roxaway59]

On this topic of puzzles just bear in mind the possibility that you may be over thinking this. I once read about a test that was done with a room full of students competing with a pigeon to solve a puzzle. The pigeon won because its thinking was much simpler and to the point. The students thinking was much more complex of course. For some reason that I can explain I'm not sure he was being that deep about his clues. Its one of those things that time will tell. Either way I find it interesting seeing how it unfolds. You would have to think that he drew that last toy for a reason so its got me wondering.
Graham

[Roxaway59]

If I was to stick with my theory that the toy page is a blue print for his wheel then I could simply say that he drew the spinning toy to represent the axle. Just a thought.
Graham

[Fletcher]

Got it Rox - you eventually get completely overwhelmed and frustrated with the TP - and in a fit of pique you scrumple it up and put a match to it ..

Dang .. it was a common garden heat engine after all .. I can't take all the credit, just simple lateral thinking a pigeon could manage ;7)

.........

Seriously .. that page has been pondered for so long, by so many, in so many ways, from the ridiculous to the sublime - "simple once found, the point was to find it" ..

It takes genius to think that simply - let's hope you have cracked it ..

[Roxaway59]

When I was 16 I worked as an apprentice shopfitter. One day one of the carpenters turned around to me and said 'Graham, yer kinda dumb and yer kinda smart. So it has been ever since. The only thing that would prove the toy page theory correct is if I got the wheel working and I promise you Fletcher that if it is possible I will find the way. We are all involving our selves in science here because every time we fail to make a working overbalanced wheel we indicate that the present laws may be correct and that is still useful work. However I don't believe for one second that Mr B was a liar so that wheel is waiting to be rediscovered.
Graham

[Fletcher]

fwiw I believe that B. wasn't a liar either, and that the OOB wheel runner is waiting to be rediscovered .. and to make matters worse I also believe that the Laws of Thermodynamics are robust and that Newtonian Mechanics and Law of Levers is complete at the worldly scale we deal at ..

That makes me either dumb or naive (or both) in some peoples eyes .. to double-down I happen to think that Ockham's Razor applies to B's. solution and besides I'm far too lazy to invent new Maths and Laws - so theoretically this blinkered linear approach should cut down the work load to something more manageable and practical - no imagination ;7) ..

Yes, every failed experiment is doing science, and an opportunity to learn something useful in this quest - I hear you and your determination and will to dig to the bottom of the well - one way or another - I look forward to trying to sim what you have to compare to your real-world experiments ..

Best ..

[Roxaway59]

I have elaborated a bit more on the toy page. The double C's and D's could just be indicating the the hammer toys turn upside down.
Graham

[neuberlintourist1]

he states something like children play with sticks around broken coloms, i guess if you find out, which childplay he exactly is referring to in his notes and books, youll be able to invision the wheel setup and movement in rotation logically- do you know the topic here; viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8761 ? it looks similar to your avatar picture?

[Roxaway59]

Hi neuberlintourist1, its possible to interpret Besslers words and clues in a variety of ways. I have interpreted them in a certain way and come up with a theory about the toy page. What I have to do now is try and prove that I am on the right track with that theory. I don't think the wheel that you are showing has much in common with mine but it is interesting.
All the best
Graham

[Fletcher]

Yes - you can read the "clues" and all the pictures and written words you like, but you always end up interpreting them - seldom do we all interpret them the same, sometimes widely disparate i.e. no consistency of interpretation ..

And then we try to coalesce all these sources into some coherent theory and mechanical arrangement ( "joining the dots" ) ..

Wheels with weights, and others without .. half full and half empty, just as it should be .. clattering noises are a result of the true motive power .. preponderance, excess weight, excess impetus .. gains momentum .. true mechanical perpetual motion as long as the materials shall last .. a new form of mechanical power ( not human, animal, fire, wind, water, spring etc etc ) unknown to Wagner or anyone else (not temperature or air pressure changes) ( N.B. see Wagners' critiques and B's. AP rebuttal ) .. the holy scripture reference to MathXVv16 i.e. the AP Wheel diagram .. and the MT drawings of failed wheels in "open systems", with their notes ..

.. A less obscure and imo dependable source in one place is the MT Toy's Page illustrations and accompanying notes by B. .. on one hand a symbolic combination of a the Alchemist Philosopher's Stone (secret to life/animation) and the Egyptian Rosetta Stone; and on the other a representation of a true mechanical device to be deduced/interpreted to operate in an "open system" giving a sustained momentum gain, imo ..

..............

The litmus checklist .. does your design/concept have many mechanical elements or indisputable association to the Toy's Page ? - for e.g., the Comeback-can and spiral-lift would seem to be short on more than a few elements, imo - tho it seems to fit some clues in isolation ..

[Roxaway59]

Hi Fletcher, its amazing when you think we have clues from Mr B to help drive us forward but he had nothing to drive him forward and no simulators to use.

I've been experimenting today with my wheel as well as building another wheel to try a separate experiment on. So far all I can say about my wheel is that I'm finding its motion/movement encouraging. I will experiment some more tomorrow and will try to get some video showing the motion.
Graham

[Fletcher]

Good luck with the building and experiments - they are always fun ..

... its amazing when you think we have clues from Mr B to help drive us forward but he had nothing to drive him forward and no simulators to use.

LOL .. I often have thought they were a far bigger hindrance than help because there's nothing remotely concrete to latch on to (maybe in hindsight) other than the Toy's Page - if you genuinely wanted to solve a mechanical PM wheel it would not matter whether you had heard of B. and his 'clues' I suspect, and of course many have done and do theorize and experiment in isolation .. for me his story provides a compelling story of his success, and provides some motivation to 'keep-at-it' until one of us breaks it open ..

He did have things driving him forward - it was a universal and popular pursuit thru the ages and into his time to solve the mechanical PM wheel .. he wanted the fame and fortune of success - and the other baubles that go with that ..

While he didn't have simulators (rubbish in rubbish out) he was well skilled in the crafts and educated in science etc .. and then his extensive study of wheels until he had the final best simulation of all - a vision/epiphany by God as he tells it - suddenly he KNEW why ALL the others had been wrong !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - every one of them ..

That's some detailed and accurate dream-sim, that gave him such accurate insight and conviction - sims don't come more powerful than one spoon-fed from your average deity ;7) ..

[Roxaway59]

Yes I understand where you are coming from with everything you are saying Fletcher. Sometimes it would be better to talk than write about these things.

Just to clarify, I was writing about my own personal experience when I wrote about being encouraged to look for this wheel. If I hadn't come across the story of Johann Bessler I don’t think I would be doing this now so I have the story driving me but Bessler didn’t.

He along with many others did have certain things driving them on just as we today have things driving us, but he also had people of maths and science pouring cold water on the whole thing as we still do today.

As every second of our lives pass by and every bit of money we spend goes into a bottomless pit that little voice saying maybe it can’t be done gets louder. It got louder for people in Besslers day and it gets louder for us now. Its a little bit like putting money in a fruit machine. At some time if it doesn’t pay out and you are running out of time and money you feel like you have to walk away and most do. I wont be walking away.

I don’t trust simulators and don’t think I ever have but if you use them carefully they can be a time saving tool for some things. I’m glad that Bessler only used the real thing and couldn’t have been lured by the useful aspects of simulators because what he lost in time and effort he gained in having reality.

So its time to start dealing with reality rather than simulators. I plan on posting some videos later.

Graham

[daxwc]

Roxaway59: I don’t trust simulators and don’t think I ever have but if you use them carefully they can be a time saving tool for some things.

I agree I know with Algodoo it resets/adjusts at the interval back to GPE.

[Roxaway59]

Yes daxwc, I only wish I had a penny for every time Algodoo has led me down the garden path. I would be rich --}. It is great for doing diagrams with though and testing simple mechanisms.
Graham

[Roxaway59]

Here is a short video showing the motions of the wheel at the moment. It is not balanced correctly and although I have the mechanisms moving roughly how I want them the movement is not correct. They are stopped almost correctly on the left but the right hand side needs more work and springs need to be added. There is a lot of experimentation that can be done with this including using shorter rods, adding springs and more stops, having a latching mechanism etc so its early days.
Graham
https://youtu.be/URfRhR8HidE