Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

[Roxaway59]

I want to show some pictures and little simulations of how I am thinking about this.

What I am showing here is purely theoretical. The idea is that with 4 crossbars the wheel is stronger and behaves like a gravitational water wheel. As the wheel is turned with the pendulums placed as they are they are continually being reset so the weights can never find equilibrium.
Graham

[Roxaway59]

Today after experimenting some more I started facing the problem that I was already aware of. For anyone who hasn't been following the thread I will restate the problem. Basically there is a trade off between having the blue lever weights small enough so the pendulum can exist and being able to still overbalance the main weights which is necessary for the whole idea to work. I will continue to work the problem and see if there is something I have overlooked. As I do that I will continue to post ideas that I think may be useful to others as well as myself.
Graham

[Roxaway59]

Here is an idea of what I think is potentially a useful mechanism. When I first started working on this I was trying to get it to go over-unity but I doubt that is possible with 2D. I think this mechanism could be used in a more minor way as part of a more complex machine or dare I say Prime Mover. It would be great if those of you with 3D simulators could build this putting the mechanism at an angle instead of being vertical to see how it behaves and then report back.
Graham

[Roxaway59]

I will be doing some basic simulations today to see if there is a better arrangement of weights and their distribution that can help overbalance my mechanisms. I will also be trying out different rod sizes and weights on the real thing.
Graham

[Roxaway59]

I have been doing some 2D simulations and I am hopeful that I have a better placement of the weights to facilitate the overbalancing of the mechanisms. I will have a better idea tomorrow when I can do some more experimenting with the real thing. I can only hope that what I am seeing is correct.
Graham

[Tarsier79]

Here is an idea of what I think is potentially a useful mechanism. When I first started working on this I was trying to get it to go over-unity but I doubt that is possible with 2D. I think this mechanism could be used in a more minor way as part of a more complex machine or dare I say Prime Mover. It would be great if those of you with 3D simulators could build this putting the mechanism at an angle instead of being vertical to see how it behaves and then report back.

I believe I have said this before. The wheel is attached to an axle in the Z direction. All movement in the Z direction is "irrelevant" for the wheel structure and axle. While 3d movement can give simplicity etc, forces seen on the axle are X and Y weight movement. This means (there are some ifs and buts) that you can position your weight as it would be in the Z in a 2D simulator, and its specific location will affect rotation as it would in 3D.

[Fletcher]

I second that T .. for Graham's sake, movement is made up of 4 dimensions ( 3 positional/geographical/geometry and 1 time ) - the x being horizontal, y being vertical, z being into or out of at right angles to your computer screen .. in Physics these are thought of and drawn as vectors, so in relation to the axle of a wheel if it is in the z axis (a side on wheel) as gravity is always vertical (perpendicular) to the ground then any mech or weight movement in the z dimension has has a vector that can be reproduced as a resultant vector of x and y vectors ..

The thought goes like this - in Classical Physics it is said to take no Work ( f x d ) ( i.e. against gravity ) to shift a weight perpendicular to a gravity field (which is vertical) - that perpendicular (right angle) can be either in the x or z dimensions or any direction that does not have a y vectoring ..

Yes - to move in the z axis can take a longer path (think of triangles) and time - but this does not effect the resultant x y force vectors ..

The z axis becomes important if internal space/volume is limited - then we use the z for objects to pass each other without collision etc .. but in 2D sims we achieve the same thing by allowing objects to move thru each other instead of colliding - collisions between objects is able to be turned on or off for objects ..

[spinner361]

Well, if the axis is vertical, the Z axis could be used to play with gravity, while the X and Y will be free from gravity. I agree with everything that was said by Tarsier79 and Fletcher regarding a horizontal axis, no matter how wide the machine is.

[Art]

.
I Disagree !

You guys maybe correct in Simland but not in my experience in Nuts and Bolts
(and wood and plastic and exotic metals) Land! : )

Try this : -

Make two small simple pendulums about 100 mm long .

Pivot one so it rotates in the x y plane only and the other so that it only rotates in the X Z plane only.

Have both mounted individually on say a bracket that can easily be fixed to a rotating flywheel.

Ensure that both pendulum assemblies are identical in weight and weight distribution.

First place the xy pendulum on the flywheel and balance carefully.
Spin the flywheel up with a known force and count the number of revolutions it makes .

Switch the pendulum assembly to the XZ form and test identically .

Results will be like night and day !

And for a real eye opener , turn the XZ pendulum at an angle to the 12 0 clock radius and repeat around 360 degrees in 45 degree segments.

Doing this kept me busy for ages a number of years back - and I still don't think I'm over it ! : )

[johannesbender]

Correct but that would be mainly because of the X movement.

[SHADOW]

En statique la moyenne de positions en 2D et en 3D est identique!

In static the average of positions in 2D and 3D is identical!

[Roxaway59]

I find the exchange over this very interesting. First let me apologies to Tarsier79 and Fletcher for taking so long to reply because I live in the UK it was time to sleep.

Because I am non technical about some of the things you are saying can I just try and get some clarity about something that is obviously very important by asking a straight forward question. Are you saying that the Z axis doesn’t matter in our real world when it comes to making a working gravity wheel? If that is the case can you please both state it for me. You see I believe that the prime mover may be to do with the Z axis until I find otherwise and I have noticed a strange principal to do with the Z axis I was going to talk about at a later date. These discussions are useful.
Graham

[thx4]

There are several Z 😂




a matter of perspective

[Roxaway59]

Hi thx4, I was thinking from the perspective of having one end of the axle coming towards me.
Graham

[Tarsier79]

Are you saying that the Z axis doesn’t matter in our real world when it comes to making a working gravity wheel?

That is a very broad question, even if it wasn't meant to be. If you are expecting something useful(ie contributes to PM) that can happen in Z that cannot happen in Z or Y, then no. (I am always happy to be wrong and look forward to your Z insights.)

I don't really understand your description of your ZX and XY pendulum. A pendulum moving between Z and X, the wheel feels only X.... Look at the setup physically from Z, whereas an X/Y pendulum has an arc movement in which both directions forces affect and are affected by gravity/inertia.
The example you provided is not something that cannot be accomplished in 2D.

Fletcher and I often have a very similar viewpoint. I have learnt a lot from him. We both also have many years of physical build experience.