Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

[Tarsier79]

Hi Graham

You are trying to get gravity to act at a different angle to your mechanism?

If the axle was angled, gravity also acts in "Z". That is obviously a different matter.

I remember trying to use this. I hoped that angling the axis so far back, I have a ramp on it so that in a certain orientation, gravity would roll a marble up the ramp and OB the wheel. The marble could roll up the ramp, but there were issues...Kind of makes me want to take another look.

[Roxaway59]

Hi Tarsier79, yes I'm thinking that Bessler may even have used something like this as his prime mover or part of it and although I've thought of just tilting the axle in the past there is obviously a little more to this and it is both easy to do and surprising in its action. You should try it if you can use it on one of your mechanisms.
Graham

[Fletcher]

Blast from the past - took me a while to find it ..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuTMYgQDUzs

...............

[Roxaway59]

Yes I did a version of this in WM2D a long time ago and if I can find it I will post it for a bit of fun. I used a ratchet system. The pendulum version is more efficient of course because it produces less heat and doesn't deform anything.
Graham

[agor95]

Hello Roxaway59 & Tarsier79

tilting the axle

I thought on your posts and imagined after 300 years plus. We should try something different.
So keeping an open mind one can look at 'Tilt'.

So using two central toy page C & D. It is natural to imagine these flat on a rotating wheel in various configurations.

What about having them vertical and cross bar like. So each supply a tilt in the X and Y plane.

However the z-Plane to these two is a radial of 1 of 4 spokes. The above cross bar is at the end of the radial.

The radials rotate around the Z axis.

This the the type of analysis I am interested in at this time.

Regards

[Roxaway59]

Yes agor95, I was thinking the same thing about the hammer men.
Graham

[Tarsier79]

Sorry Agor. That was my whole point about Z not doing anything useful. It doesn't give you any "advantage". Gravity is in pure Y, X is used to affect leverage and Z is in line with the axle under normal circumstances.

[agor95]

Sorry Agor. That was my whole point about Z not doing anything useful. It doesn't give you any "advantage". Gravity is in pure Y, X is used to affect leverage and Z is in line with the axle under normal circumstances.

It is OK Tarsier79; I appreciate your understanding of the interaction or lack of interaction.
It is up to others to show why and explain why in words, maths, sim & physical proof.

Regards

[Roxaway59]

I think I need to clarify how I’m thinking about this and then ask the question again.

I’m not going to sit here and say I don’t care about maths and geometry and important equations because I do. I just don’t believe that we should concentrate on things like that too much when trying to solve this problem.

Its enough for me to know that if I sit on one side of a sea saw for example opposite a person of roughly the same weight that the sea saw will even out.

I don’t believe that Mr B was getting himself bogged down with maths as he made his 100 failed wheels because he obviously wasn’t. If he had gone about things in that way I believe he would have actually failed to make a working gravity wheel. He succeeded by using his imagination and then trying things out in the real world.

Now it is clear to me that there is no better way of solving this problem than to tirelessly keep on building real models and experiments. Even sometimes if it flies in the face of what may seem logical because lets face it no harm can come from it and it reaffirms the maths and logic. Building something that we already know about and watching it move in the real world is always a rewarding experience because it is not a simulation.

If I had my way I would have a house full of various models all demonstrating their own unique qualities and I would let them inspire me and ask what if? Now I will ask the question again in a different way.

In the picture I am showing the wheel straightens up on one half of the cycle and on the other half it tilts. This straightening up and tilting is an oscillation of course. It is able to tilt top right more than top left and more bottom left than bottom right as indicated. So do you find this both interesting and potentially useful? If your answer is either yes or no that is perfectly fine with me and hopefully you will say why. I can tell you that I find it both interesting and potentially useful. Bear in mind that I’m only really interested in the movement and it does not have to be the main part of the wheel as with this example. It can be a small mechanism on the wheel and it can be anyway up. Experimentation is needed.
Graham

[spinner361]

It would be helpful if you lengthen and shorten the crossbars on the side view model to reflect the tilt, because the tilting effects the X and Y. From the side view, a crossbar will be longer when not tilted and shorter when tilted. Do you agree with that?

Currently, without showing things in proportion, it is hard to know if the crossbars are tipping at the center point, at the bottom point, or at the upper point.

You are showing that the crossbars are longer when they are tilted.

[Roxaway59]

Hi spinner361, actually it may not look like it but they are the same length and the axle that goes through them doesn't change, its the way the hole is drilled through the crossbar that causes the effect.
Graham

[Roxaway59]

I just wanted to expand a little on the way I see this.

All our lives we are use to watching wheels of one form or another grind to a halt. To us it is perfectly natural and the only exception to this is a wheel that is powered by something and very often that is electricity.

A wheel is a dead object and it has no life and on its own we would never expect it to continue rotating. It isn't so difficult to imagine a wheel that has the ability to power itself as having a life of its own almost like a living thing. In a way its even a little spooky because its not supposed to happen.

So anyone who gives the wheel life is almost messing with creation itself and I have already theorized that a working wheel may have an analogy with atomic structure. Which is of course the fundamental building blocks of everything.

When Bessler discovered how to do this it isn’t so surprising to me that his thinking became more theological and philosophical because he would have known instinctively that this was more than just a wheel that could power itself. It went a lot deeper than that. I’m not going to get into this today because now is not the time but this world doesn’t work the way that most people think it does. It is very important that we rediscover how to do this.
Graham

[Sam Peppiatt]

Graham,
We should dispel with that kind of talk. Would it be a 'heck' of a machine, sure but, that and only that--------------Sam

[Roxaway59]

Sam you may be right that it could be nothing more than just a machine with no connection to anything. I think that is something only time will show.
Graham

[spinner361]

I do not think you are understanding what I meant by longer and shorter. If the crossbars are all the same length, as one tips, it will "appear" shorter from the side view.