How Difficult can it be?

[Fletcher]

Question to ask those interested something to think on,....How many spokes were in ole Besslers wheel,..if i remember correctly ,both sides of his wheel were covered with canvas,..so 1 spoke, 2 spokes, 3 spokes,4 spokes, 5 spokes, 6 spokes,..or more ....by my reckoning it is 1 spoke to the hub ,which would simplify the whole mechanism for a gravity/C/F solution......I wish you all a Merry Christmas Xmas and a Happy and Prosperous New Year.....

Wagner’s Critiques .. XXIX. On page I, line 12 seq., the defender assures his readers that the principle of the motion depends on no external assistance, driving, etc., but is solely and simply concealed within. I never doubted that the principle is concealed within the wheel, but it is false to say that the motion depends solely on the internally concealed weights, for the impossibility has already been shown sufficiently above. The weights distributed over the circumference of the wheel give it such a powerfully moving force that a load hung from it does not weaken the rotations noticeably. The internal clatter and rattle do not imply a constant alternation of rising and falling; rather the clatter might depend partly on the turning of the weights in the compartments and partly on a completely separate clapping apparatus. Almost no clatter and rattle was to be heard with the Draschwitz wheel; the wheel was made up of 8 spokes and was completely empty near the circumference, as one could see through the various cracks in the casing made of thin splinters, but there was not the slightest trace of a rising and falling weight to be heard or seen.

Hi Rass .. Wagner says the Draschwitz one-way wheel had 8 spokes - I assume he meant 8 spokes per side rather than 4 + 4 .. I know when I've built spoked wheels (I now use solid disk ply siding) I've also used 8 per side for structural rigidity and integrity - remember B's. next two-way Merseburg wheel was anchored from floor to ceiling and I always said this was important for strength and rigidity because if like the Draschwitz, and as Wagner said, some powerful rim forces were quickly developed which could presumably pull/flex the wheel frame around (e.g. lifting of the frame stand in the Merseburg) - otherwise a supported standing frame would always have been more than adequate .. additionally the two-way wheels always needed a reasonable push start before they accelerated away - too small a push and they did not accelerate and stood still - this indicates to me that some serious imbalance force occurred excited above a threshold activation push force given, and which was then naturally amplified by the internal mechanics, to explain the increasing acceleration and increasing RPM and gain in Momentum ..

Compliments of the season to you .. cheers

[rasselasss]

Fletcher,as you and others here will know i had success with ,my hollow drum ,fixed baseplate to axle/hub design...but it had complicated mechanism working through aperture in the axle and very little power to drive.....This design when you see and comprehend how it works will i assure you and all here how simple it is to achieve....i Will show it to completion how it works....As John Collins is going to deliver his idea ,out of respect for him i will leave my explanation until after he delivers his...it is the simplicity that will amaze all here ...in plain sight for all to see but hidden because of that ....please no questions until then from any member..

[Fletcher]

Looking forward to that .. and yes, I understand waiting out of respect for JC .. he deserves a fair crack without distractions and nonsense, he earned it imo ..

Good luck ..

[rasselasss]

Fletcher,this is my view of all Besslers witness's of their statements,..they were all eminent in their own fields ,no disputing that ,but they had an audience after viewing to return to ,they could not go back empty handed,i'm not saying they lied but used their own point of view of what they observed..continued..

[rasselasss]

take wagners statement ,looking through a crack in board to see 8 spokes....no pen torches those days candles oil lamps..has anyone here ever looked into a dark room ,through keyhole whatever ..without illumination i reckon impossible to see anything..candle,oil lamp would have to shine in,how to do it ,head in the way...Bessler went against most of what they all believed and they were biased against him...their statements i take with a pinch of salt....apologies i tether from mobile to laptop one finger typing and takes so long it closes me down.......continued

[rasselasss]

Please don't think i'm knocking JC or anyone else here i know Bessler did what he stated and statements are transcripts of witness's views and JC did a wonderful job collating and printing same ,hope this explains my take on them....

[justsomeone]

Wagner’s Critiques .. XXIX. On page I, line 12 seq., the defender assures his readers that the principle of the motion depends on no external assistance, driving, etc., but is solely and simply concealed within. I never doubted that the principle is concealed within the wheel, but it is false to say that the motion depends solely on the internally concealed weights, for the impossibility has already been shown sufficiently above. The weights distributed over the circumference of the wheel give it such a powerfully moving force that a load hung from it does not weaken the rotations noticeably. The internal clatter and rattle do not imply a constant alternation of rising and falling; rather the clatter might depend partly on the turning of the weights in the compartments and partly on a completely separate clapping apparatus. Almost no clatter and rattle was to be heard with the Draschwitz wheel; the wheel was made up of 8 spokes and was completely empty near the circumference, as one could see through the various cracks in the casing made of thin splinters, but there was not the slightest trace of a rising and falling weight to be heard or seen



I would not worry about this statement, if you have a design that weights land on the rim. Imagine if all the slits were just under the warped boards, near the rim. On the other side of the boards the action was happening. There would be no reason for Bessler to repair the slots where nothing is happening. I am sure he repaired the ones that might have given something away.

[rasselasss]

To begin,i very much admire the dedication of Aldo Costa to persue his design to completion ,if it had a fault in my opinion ,too many spokes making it very difficult to balance which upsets its O/B objective although i believe ,just my thoughts ,if in a vacumn and balanced at the outset it would have worked

[rasselasss]

To continue,..the spoke number is important to some here ...but the question is..when is a spoke not a spoke..how do we see and make it perform a different task and in a different manner....in preparation you need these instructions and information,..perfect balance...precision build..excellent bearings...an axle of good quality and a hub to attach to the axle and excellent fit{dimensions obvious to size required and discussed later.....i am not scripted and will continue in a few days when time permits...

[daxwc]

What gets me about the spoke question is why 8? I know when I built a spoked wheel I tried to keep it at 4 spokes, because that is the natural inclination. Even when I wanted to 1/8 it up I would just come off the rim. Or use a sheet of plywood. Of course he didn’t have plywood.

I am real suspect of Wagner’s claims the wheel is empty. He only ever examined it one time himself. Still all the movement could happen between the spokes ( for example SB’s in the z plane) which would explain why he didn’t see the need to cover the cracks.

[daxwc]

Fletcher: Hi Rass .. Wagner says the Draschwitz one-way wheel had 8 spokes - I assume he meant 8 spokes per side rather than 4 + 4 .. I know when I've built spoked wheels (I now use solid disk ply siding) I've also used 8 per side for structural rigidity and integrity - remember B's. next two-way Merseburg wheel was anchored from floor to ceiling and I always said this was important for strength and rigidity because if like the Draschwitz, and as Wagner said, some powerful rim forces were quickly developed which could presumably pull/flex the wheel frame around (e.g. lifting of the frame stand in the Merseburg) - otherwise a supported standing frame would always have been more than adequate .. additionally the two-way wheels always needed a reasonable push start before they accelerated away - too small a push and they did not accelerate and stood still - this indicates to me that some serious imbalance force occurred excited above a threshold activation push force given, and which was then naturally amplified by the internal mechanics, to explain the increasing acceleration and increasing RPM and gain in Momentum ..

Sorry Fletcher some how I missed your post. That's a fair explanation considering its a drum and you didn't need the spokes to land on.

[Fletcher]

Hey dax .. something I was searching for this morning, with no success, that you may know the answer to .. somewhere in JC's blog I think I remember KB talking about the Merseburg translocation test [- where B. took out cylindrical lead weights of about 4 lbs each - they were estimated by us to be about half a standard coke can volume ( same 2.6 inch diameter and half 4.83 inches height of a standard coke can volume ) approximately (quite small), and had a hole thru the middle - anyways Wolff said 2 things that are at odds - in one letter he said many weights were handed around and they were allowed to touch them (but not the ends of the cylinder), altho covered by a cloth - in another letter he said ONE weight was handed around - a small point but details matter ..]

A. Assume nothing
B. Believe nothing
C. Check everything

Anyhoo .. the main thing I was looking for was a KB source to these weights being put in a box before translocation took place ? I can't find anything to support many weights were put into a box etc .. Maybe someone else knows the source of weights in a box that gets repeated ?

It could make a difference to the 5 vs 8 lever theory - or maybe neither number was correct and particularly the 8 is an assumption based almost exclusively on sounds heard more than anything else ? ..

cheers ..

[agor95]

Out of curiosity I asked information of Besslers Documment list to ChatGPT

The first was "Orffyreus' Cog-Wheel (1712)".

Regards

[rasselasss]

To continue....to me Bessler was a great illusionist ,covers ,gubbins, banging noises ,thumping whatever to distract attention...this has been well discussed before many times....this design to understand you must go back to the basics without predujice disgarding your own thoughts....so...simple bicycle wheel fixed spinning,by cup bearings...is not turning a shaft... just spinning in its own cup bearings...a gentle push ..how many if any complete revolutions will it spin ?....now a heavy(static) balanced disc ...lets say 6 feet in diameter ..weight lets say 10 stone ...3 inches thick ...not attached to a shaft ..running in its own bearing like bicycle wheel ..quarter push of circumference ...how many revolutions...obviouly we dont know how many revolutions both will achieve but..it will be more than one complete revolution in both examples...so this is the beginning of this design and how to achieve perpetual motion ...to be continued...sorry about did in a hurry..

[daxwc]

Oh sorry Fletcher. You should have come asked me on one of my threads. I don't usually read JC's blog. Also I am so compulsive that I don't roam around much till I have the time. Are you referring to this:

wagner_critique_1
On the other hand, at the experiment, before the wheel was set up at another place in different boards, he had taken an amount of weight out of the wheel which could have filled a considerable box, and in the received testimony he expressly admits that the weights are inside and are driven Furthermore, in the said newspaper, 4th issue of the 36th week of 1715, he solemnly promises to let the wheel run continuously for 8 days (Sunday excluded); on 31 October 1715, the day appointed for the experiment and external inspection of the NB perpetual motion machine, many curious parties had arrived supposing he would let it run for as long as promised when he set it in motion for a paltry half hour. (Here one must note that throughout the entire text I call this a half- hour experiment, the reason being that before the translocation the wheel ran NB continuously for a half hour or slightly longer and equally as long after the translocation.) I do not know who led Dr. Orffyreus to believe that a motion of a half hour is a perpetual motion.

X.

He has otherwise performed his experiment most agreeably, in that he spent the most time taking out and replacing the weights and setting up the wheel at another place in other boards; thus, because the wheel would not have been capable of remaining in continuous motion for as long as the gentlemen present were willing to stay, the experiment did not end badly, with the motion coming to a complete halt. Indeed, it seems to me most astonishing that he was permitted to open the wheel and, with his hands to the wall behind the grating built in front, manipulate the insides without any one of those present being able to see whether the operation consisted only of the removal of the weights, or if' NB the weights, but not the wheel, were reset to their previous position so that the wheel, which had run down considerably before the translocation, would be able to go again for a while after the translocation: at an experiment which had been spoken of with such glowing terms and boasting, one should have observed this precaution more carefully

Bessler wasn’t there but maybe the newspaper witnessed it. “the said newspaper, 4th issue of the 36th week of 1715,”

Fletcher; It could make a difference to the 5 vs 8 lever theory - or maybe neither number was correct and particularly the 8 is an assumption based almost exclusively on sounds heard more than anything else ? ..

That’s the thing. First, lots of witnesses say about 8 knocks like it is not regular like a clock; nobody says exactly 8 knocks. Or you could have weights around the rim also to use as a flywheel but can be taken out to move it. Or the device has inner weights that never touch the rim. Or if it is geared it could only have 4 weights that it doubled in a rotation.

Does 8 fill a considerable box? Sort of subjective.


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