So easy a carpenters boy could build it once seen...?

[johannesbender]

Hi could someone possibly find the time to drop a quote to show where the text/s comes from which goes something like "So easy a carpenters boy could build it once seen" , I have seen it used many times , but I would like to once and for all know (because it had me wondering) whether its hearsay or can be directly substantiated as actually being said or written ?

[John Collins]

From my book, “ Fischer wrote to Desaguliers thus:, “……… His Highness, who possesses all the qualities that a great prince should have, has always had consideration for the inventor, and will not use the machine in any way for fear of the secret being discovered before the inventor had received a reward from foreigners. His Highness, who has a perfect understanding of mathematics, assured me that the machine is so simple that a carpenter's boy could understand and make it after having seen the inside of this wheel, and that he would not risk his name in giving these attestations, if he did not have knowledge of the machine.”

JC

[johannesbender]

From my book, “ Fischer wrote to Desaguliers thus:, “……… His Highness, who possesses all the qualities that a great prince should have, has always had consideration for the inventor, and will not use the machine in any way for fear of the secret being discovered before the inventor had received a reward from foreigners. His Highness, who has a perfect understanding of mathematics, assured me that the machine is so simple that a carpenter's boy could understand and make it after having seen the inside of this wheel, and that he would not risk his name in giving these attestations, if he did not have knowledge of the machine.”

JC

Thank you John so it comes from Desaguliers saying Karl said so .

[John Collins]

Not really, the letter from Fischer von Erlach to Desaguliers was published and republished many times as was a similar letter from sGravesande to Newton on his own examination of the wheel. So it became widely known.

JC

[johannesbender]

So we/i can rest assured it is not hearsay/myth .

eto , To top it off we know Bessler himself remarked in writing it is simple , so its not the complexity of the build that is a hurdle but it is finding the solution/principle which is a hurdle according to Bessler.

[daxwc]

JB: To top it off we know Bessler himself remarked in writing it is simple , so its not the complexity of the build that is a hurdle but it is finding the solution/principle which is a hurdle according to Bessler.

There does seem to be a building complexity:

JC's AP Eighthly: “Could I reveal how long it takes to build one of my
machines?”
Answer - if I were to sell my art one could run to craftsmen who in
the space of 4 weeks could build what I can scarcely build in 6
months. Furthermore, since at the moment I feel unable to put
trust in any assistants, my work could not be given any firm date
for completion.

Bessler says the math is simple. I can't remember where he said the design is simple?? He might have.

Sorry found it:

DT:
And in truth it now seems to me that the time is long
overdue, now that I have achieved my goal, once known only to
God, that I and the world should see this principle, in itself so
simple, and yet at the same time so deeply hidden, of
everlasting motion, described in total detail and in mathematical
simplicity, in praise of God’s boundless wisdom, and for the
benefit of the entire world.

[johannesbender]

I think he wrote something about the design progressed to a point that it could be assembled without a lot of head scratch... and that their was not much to his art ... and when wretches would see it they would say just look at the thing properly ...

So i assume he means there is a certain amount of simplicity to the design (how much is unknown) .

Imo this talk of simplicity that even a child could fabricate and understand it must be the single most annoying , hard to accept statement ever for me.

[Sam Peppiatt]

jb,
Could an apprentice understand it, sure. Could he build it? No. He wouldn't even know how to sharpen the tools. Prince Karl and Bessler were trying to sell the wheel. Like all salesmen they want to "pump it up", right? Are they going to say that only the most skilled craftsman in the country could build it? No. They aren't going to say that. What they did say was that it was a DIY, project, any one could build it. Which is Bull Sh*t-------------------------Sam

[Tarsier79]

I think a carpenters boy would have more skill than you think. Carpenters had a lot more skill than they do now. I think an apprentice particularly at the end of his apprenticeship could be quite skillful.

[Robinhood46]

I think Bessler getting annoyed when anyone tried to peak inside, is another indicator of it's simplicity. He wouldn't even need to hide the inside if it was mega complicated and only someone with experience could understand and/or replicate it.
Karl's remark about being surprised nobody had thought of it before, is another indication that it was probably pretty simple. Why would he think that, if it was as complicated as a combustion engine?
I think many of us make the same mistake as those who decided PM was impossible. If i can't find the solution it must be impossible.
If i can't find the solution to Bessler's wheel, it must be complicated. I wont mention that we have access to material and equipment that Bessler couldn't even dream of in the 18th century, that would make us feel even stupider than we already are.

[johannesbender]

To put the cherry on the cake , Bessler left us the toy page with a bunch of children toys/games and it is so simple we cant figure it out !

[johannesbender]

I get people back then made their living mostly being highly skilled in something , likely more so than today , and for them it might have been simple enough to call it simple , but what gets to me is that apperently you would understand it the moment when seen , i mean as far as the construction goes you could pay someone to build it if it seemed to be to complicated for your own building skill , what exactly can be so simple that we cannot figure it out.

[Robinhood46]

I think many of us have been looking at it, but we can't see it.
Maybe if we did see Bessler's wheel, in a sketch, without being told it is Bessler's wheel, we still wouldn't see it, because we wouldn't believe it to be runner.
Witnesses who observed it running, would not have the option of, it's a non runner, they would have no choice, other than accept that this stupidly simple contraption is PM.

[thx4]

everlasting motion, described in total detail and in mathematical
simplicity, in praise of God’s boundless wisdom, and for the
benefit of the entire world.

When I read that, I think B doesn't give a damn about the world, or never said that?

[daxwc]

JB: To put the cherry on the cake , Bessler left us the toy page with a bunch of children toys/games and it is so simple we cant figure it out !

Maybe the toypage is a red herring? What a better way to throw people off the trail that don't want to take the time to extract his motion.

There is two different camps on the toypage. People that think it is just about generic actions needed and those that think there is a physical link.