Query about centrifugal force siphon.

[savoniuspiral]

Hi, Happy new year to all!
have a query about centrifugal force in this basic design below.
images below show a hollow T pipe.
if the pipe turns at speed, on the vertical hollow axle, and sits in a reservoir of fluid, will a siphon action take affect and exit the horizontal pipe outlets?
if so, is there a point in which the pipe diameter is too large for the continuous siphon flow to continue ?
"assume higher rpm is a major factor when using a larger diameter pipe".

[Fletcher]

Hi ss .. if the T pipe is full of a fluid, say like water, and is primed e.g. say suck water up thru the T and then block the ends with fingers .. once the fingers are taken away and simultaneously the T pipe is set rotating then Cf's (inertia) will cause the water to spray outwards continuously like a garden sprinkler - the water molecules having covalent and hydrogen bonding will "hold hands like a daisy chain" and this will create a suction at the base of the T and suck/pull new water into the pipe from the reservoir - once the rotation of the pipe stops the siphon pull will stop too - no practical experience with it but reasoning it thru ..

Should work at any scale ..

[Sam Peppiatt]

saveninspiral
I don't know but, I don't think it would work. The vertical pipe would just spin in the water. What if the vertical pipe was cone shape? Maybe that would work. Try it and see--------Sam

ETA. The "T" arms should bend back wards and be choked off by some amount so the water wouldn't all flow out at once, I think.

[SHADOW]

Le débit aspiré doit être identique au débit refoulé à mon avis!
Donc le tube plongeant doit être de plus gros diamètre que les tubes refoulent.
Pour avoir l'effet siphon les tubes refoulent doivent être inclinés vers le bas et provoquer la rotation de l'ensemble.
C'est tout au moins ce que j'essaierais.

Heureuse année 2024 à tous, que vos recherches soient couronnées de sucés.
J.B

The flow sucked must be identical to the flow discharged in my opinion!
So the dip tube must be larger in diameter than the discharge tubes.
To have the siphon effect the discharge tubes must be inclined downwards and cause the assembly to rotate.
At least that’s what I would try.

Happy year 2024 to all, may your research be crowned with sucés.
J.B

[Robinhood46]

I have built exactly that and many many variations, they all work as long as they are primed.
One way of priming them is to add a reservoir to each side of the horizontal pipes. In my case a 100/32 mm reducer from 32 to 100 and then another one from 100 to 32, this causes a "belly" that cannot empty when you stop it. Once they start rotating the belly is emptied by the CF and this sucks the water up from the central pipe and fills all the pipes and bellies.
The only thing that will cause them to not work is if the height you wish to lift the water on the sucking end, is too great for the suction created by the CF to do it, other than stupid reasons, like air intake or blocked pipes.

[savoniuspiral]

Thanks for the replies.
The priming for the complete system is the difficult part to design,
as it's not as simple as in the basic T type example.
what if the pipe now has 4 outlets, but with valves that only allow fluid to flow out of 1 pipe exit every 90 degrees of rotation and close to keep the fluid primed in the other 3 outlets prior to opening for 90 degrees rotation ?

EDIT, the valves would need to be on the pipes outlets.

[Robinhood46]

Another way of supplying water, (or whatever liquid) to the system, is to have a tube that pokes up through the centre, which is fed by a reservoir very slightly higher. With this method there is no need to prime it, because there isn't any suction going on. A hollow mushroom shaped pipe works better than a simple pipe bent over.

[agor95]

Happy New Year savoniuspiral

I look forwards to your investigation of this area of study.

I believe Viktor went through the same thought process as yourself.

It looks like he combined a large diameter pipe employing an archimedes screw doing the valve function.
Then reduced the pipe width. In doing so used the water itself as the finger on the end; so to speak.

Also mitigated some if not all the inertial drag by sweeping back the pipes. Then used the opportunity too point the
output backwards to supply thrust.

A more practical person could work through each modification in turn too see if they improve the water flow.

The Stuttgart experiments

The results were rather astonishing. Schauberger and Pöpel observed that the frictional resistance decreased the more conical and spiralling the pipes were made. Pipes made of copper had a lower flow resistance than pipes made of glass. The spiralling copper pipe produced an undulating friction curve as the flow was increased. At some flows a negative friction was observed, as if water seemed to lose contact with the walls and fall freely through the pipe. How to interpret this remains to be seen.

A basic principle that can be deduced from the Stuttgart experiments is a rotation of water around its own axis, while it is flowing along a spiralling path with decreasing radius. The rotational velocity increases towards the center where a sub-pressure exists.

Regards

[savoniuspiral]

Thanks RH46,
current design has the level of fluid at the height of the horizontal outlet channels, or a little higher.
a circular dish, deeper and a little higher than the pipe system sits below the pipework and is fixed to the pipes axle.
idea behind this, is so once its at rotational speed, the fluid exiting the pipes won't collect or build up in the green dish, as it's thrown outwards and upwards, to collect back into the tank. the fluid would actually be in constant contact underneath the green saucer dish.
possibly has too much friction, mercury would be the preferred fluid.

agor95,
Archimedes screw instead of the pipes is in the design, though won't be building this, it's way above my build capacity, and most likely won't work.
almost looks like a UFO.

[agor95]

Hi savoniuspiral

You are right Viktor work is even advanced for us today though he was experimenting in 1952.

However a skilled blender user could create the required files to print 3d components of Viktor's design.

Just a thought

[savoniuspiral]

@ Agor95
Just had a quick look at the spiral Schauberger used, "seems to be conical"
i'm just using a spiral similar to MT 43.
thought parts were missing from his original build, so the full design is still unknown.

[agor95]

Hi savoniuspiral

Just had a quick look at the spiral Schauberger used, "seems to be conical"
i'm just using a spiral similar to MT 43.

There is a lot to learn; Viktor's designs are advanced.

It's studies, like the ones here, that get people thinking now little they know.

Then; do they want to do something about getting their knowledge up to speed.

Some go for device building to gain understanding and knowledge &
others go for simplifying to the extreme.

Note.

The first implementation is to use pipes like you have put like hollow springs.
That way some water will be in the pipes when it stops spinning.

This is similar to RH46's implementation.

Regards

[Sam Peppiatt]

saveninspiral,
FWEIW, I remember seeing a patent drawing. The vertical pipe was bent into a cone shaped spiral leading down and would pick up water with out priming. It had two pipes wound about each other, opposed to each other, for balance I guess.-------------Sam

ETA I better add, at the bottom the two pipes were bent to scoop up water as it rotated. At the top they were bent out ward on a radius.