How Difficult can it be?

[John Collins]

From my book, Wolff to Leibniz.

“ When the machine was ready to rotate, all adjacent rooms were opened and the bearings were completely uncovered. To prevent anyone accidentally seeing the internal structure of the machine, he covered it. Whilst he did this, he did not disguise the fact that the mechanism is moved by weights. Several such weights, wrapped in his handkerchief, he let us weigh in our hands to estimate their weight. They were judged to be about four pounds each, and their shape was definitely cylindrical.”

JC

[Fletcher]

Here's the conflicting statement about the number of weights passed around ..

also from JC's AP ..

re: Merseburg Wheel ... letter from Christian Wolff to Johann Daniel Schumacher, 3rd July, 1722

"... b) Before translocating the wheel, the Inventor who was performing the test for the officially appointed Commissioners, took out the weights and permitted one of them to be touched, wrapped in a handkerchief. He did not allow the weight to be touched on the end, but lengthwise, it felt cylindrical and not very thick."

[Fletcher]

Oh sorry Fletcher. You should have come asked me on one of my threads. I don't usually read JC's blog. Also I am so compulsive that I don't roam around much till I have the time. Are you referring to this:

wagner_critique_1

... On the other hand, at the experiment, before the wheel was set up at another place in different boards, he had taken an amount of weight out of the wheel which could have filled a considerable box, and in the received testimony he expressly admits that the weights are inside and are driven.

Fletcher; It could make a difference to the 5 vs 8 lever theory - or maybe neither number was correct and particularly the 8 is an assumption based almost exclusively on sounds heard more than anything else ? ..

That’s the thing. First, lots of witnesses say about 8 knocks like it is not regular like a clock; nobody says exactly 8 knocks. Or you could have weights around the rim also to use as a flywheel but can be taken out to move it. Or the device has inner weights that never touch the rim. Or if it is geared it could only have 4 weights that it doubled in a rotation.

Does 8 fill a considerable box? Sort of subjective.

ETA : Formatting is playing up ..

FT in reply said .. Two points dax, and thx for finding that - understand being compulsive lol ..

Wagner says taken out an amount of weight which "could have" filled a considerable box - the reports I was remembering from JC's blog said paraphrased that the weights were placed in a box (as a fact - didn't happen) .. Wagner speculates that they could have filled a considerable box in his opinion - we know the weights had a cylindrical volume about half a coke can size - only 5 or 8 of them would never warrant a box of any sort, let alone a considerable one, to carry the weights in - tho obviously B. would not want them seen and they would be covered in some way I guess ..

My own observations are that if we say 2 B. weights are equivalent to 1 coke can size then a small box in my fridge holds 12 full sized cans - that 24 B. weights equivalent .. thus I speculate that the number of weights to fill a considerable sized box was probably a lot more than 24, imo .. if about 8 sounds were heard per revolution near the downgoing side then we can conclude that at least about 8 weights were located near the rim - the others I speculate were a part of the wheel did not make a contacting sound and their positioning is unconfirmed from this reports details ..

[daxwc]

One thing to consider. Bessler's party trick of letting the witnesses touch the weights probably was done on more than one occasion.

[johannesbender]

Here's the conflicting statement about the number of weights passed around ..

also from JC's AP ..

re: Merseburg Wheel ... letter from Christian Wolff to Johann Daniel Schumacher, 3rd July, 1722

"... b) Before translocating the wheel, the Inventor who was performing the test for the officially appointed Commissioners, took out the weights and permitted one of them to be touched, wrapped in a handkerchief. He did not allow the weight to be touched on the end, but lengthwise, it felt cylindrical and not very thick."

Is the statements about how many weights were touched or how many taken out ?

[daxwc]

Re: Merseburg Wheel - Letter from Christian Wolff to Johann Daniel Schumacher, 3rd July 1722
"... b) Before translocating the wheel, the Inventor who was performing the test for the officially appointed Commissioners took out the weights and permitted one of them to be touched, wrapped in a handkerchief. He did not allow the weight to be touched on the end, but lengthwise; it felt cylindrical and not very thick."

"Several weights, wrapped in his handkerchief, he let us weigh. They were judged to be about four pounds each, and their shape was definitely cylindrical." - PM 70 Christian Wolff letter to Leibniz

What was the date for the Wolff to Leibniz letter? Wolff seen the wheel on a number of occasions.

Wagner:
Wagner wasn’t there, but maybe the newspaper witnessed it. The said newspaper, 4th issue of the 36th week of 1715,
"He had taken an amount of weight out of the wheel which could have filled a considerable box." - FE Christian Wagner

"Orffyreus did not attempt to conceal the fact that his machine is set in motion by weights." The author goes on to "conclude from circumstantial evidence that the weights were pierced in the middle and attached by connecting springs." - PM 87 Merseburg witness Johann Mencke 1715.


"A work of this kind has as its basis of motion many separate pieces of lead." - AP 291

"When they come to be placed together and are so arranged one against another." - PV 103 of DT 20

"Of fat, lazy, plump horses" - Plump (adj.) full and rounded in form

"As long as the upper weight remains outside the center of gravity, it incessantly exercises universal motion from which the essential constituent parts of the machine receive power and push." - DT 20 Al Bacon (Glenn Rouse)/Ted of Chicago (Andrew Witter)

[daxwc]

JC's AP: Professor Wolff obliged, with an account of the proceedings on the 19th December 1715. This letter, one of many between Wolff and Leibniz, seems to have been ignored by the publishers because of its subject matter. Wolff wrote from Halle.
'When Orffyreus exhibited the extraordinary machine which he had built, to refute the malicious rumours being spread that it is fraudulent, I was deliberately present. The mechanic, Gärtner, in particular, who is so famous for his many celebrated mechanical inventions, has distributed in public a copper-engraving on which is a slanderous picture showing how Orffyreus' machine was moved by means of a cord from an adjoining room. We have demonstrated that in reality Orffyreus' wheel is far removed from any such deception. The investigation was conducted in the presence of representatives from the Court of the Duke and other guests. When the machine was ready to rotate, all adjacent rooms were opened and the bearings were completely uncovered. To prevent anyone accidentally seeing the internal structure of the machine, he covered it. Whilst he did this, he did not disguise the fact that the mechanism is moved by weights. Several such weights, wrapped in his handkerchief, he let us weigh in our hands to estimate their weight. They were judged to be about four pounds each, and their shape was definitely cylindrical.

[daxwc]

JC's Book:

'Impartial Comments on the Orffyrean Perpetuum Mobile, prepared for His Majesty the Czar, Halle, 3rd July, 1722
'1. To begin with, it would appear to be beyond doubt that Orffyreus' wheel is not moved by any imaginable external force but rather, its movement is due to the internal weights which are applied in a special manner. My reasons for arriving at this conclusion are:
a) I saw, myself, that the wheel began to rotate with speed and uniformity, without any appreciable external thrust or push until it was slowed from outside. Any attempt at fraud from outside was impossible because the wheel bearings were uncovered on both sides and one could see the axle journals turning in their bearings. Upon request, the wheel was moved from its stand and put on another one.
b) Before translocating the wheel, the Inventor who was performing the test for the officially appointed Commissioners, took out the
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weights and permitted one of them to be touched, wrapped in a handkerchief. He did not allow the weight to be touched on the end, but lengthwise, it felt cylindrical and not very thick. One could hear the weights landing on the overbalanced side, as though they were swinging, from which one can assume that the overbalancing was caused by their impact. Furthermore there is the testimony of the Landgrave of Hesse-Kassel, who is experienced in evaluating mechanical inventions and had seen the internal mechanism of the wheel and ran it for many weeks in a locked room, keeping the keys himself, having personally locked and sealed the doors and windows with his own seal. He testified both verbally and in an officially printed certificate that the movement of the wheel was caused by nothing more than the weights and that it would run continuously unless the internal structure of the wheel was altered.
2. Since it is impossible, according to mathematical proof, for a machine to run continuously by its own force, some matter from outside must contribute to its motion. That matter cannot be perceived by any of the senses but could be made use of by people who know nature better. I suggest, therefore, that the weights on the wheel's periphery are attached by rods in such a way that when at rest on the lighter side of the wheel, they can be lifted, but when they start to fall, after the wheel has turned, they deliver a force on impact, acquired during the fall, onto a piece of wood which is fixed to the periphery. In this way, the wheel is put into rotation by the impact of the weights, which can be heard. But the force which drives the weights, does not come from the machine itself, rather it comes from some fluid, invisible matter by which the movement of the falling weights becomes faster and faster. Orffyreus' whole invention consists of an artful arrangement of weights, in such a way that they are lifted when at rest and acquire force during their fall, and in my opinion it is this that he keeps secret. This is also consistent with what Orffyreus says, that anyone could easily understand his invention, as soon as he is allowed to look into the wheel.
3. It is possible therefore, that when the internal structure of the wheel has been revealed, some mathematicians may decide that it is not a perpetual motion machine as there is an additional force involved, namely the unknown substance which applies continuous pressure to heavy bodies when they fall, and which adds to the force of their impact.
4. Because this substance is present everywhere and exerts its effects unceasingly, the wheel can be installed anywhere. As a result, it is as if no additional force was involved, and in the end it is the same as if it was a true perpetual motion machine, and many of the mathematicians will insist that this is so, objecting to this line of reasoning.
5. Until the internal arrangement of the wheel is understood, it will not be possible to discover whether its power can be appreciably increased or not. Perhaps its power can only be increased to a certain
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degree, after which it will again decrease if someone tries to make it larger. In this case, any attempt to increase its power would be counterproductive.
6. At present, I do not expect any special results from the machine. The one I saw had very thin journals and the axle was hollow; these two features were contributing to the fast rotation of the wheel, and so to its power when the wheel had to lift something. This would not be an acceptable feature in a wheel that was intended for serious development. Such a thin journal would quickly wear out and such a poor axle would soon break down. Besides, there is considerable difference between a machine that is used continuously for work, and one that is run for a moment or a few minutes to pull or lift something.
7. Whoever wishes to buy Orffyreus' machine should decide in his mind whether he wants to have it as a curiosity or for the advantages it offers for moving machinery. In the first case, everything written in notes 2 and 3 should be taken into consideration. In the second case, notes 5 and 6 should be born in mind.'

Seven years later he probably was just not remembering properly.

[daxwc]

Jc's Book "test took place on the 9th October 1712 and was witnessed by various local notables. The certificate reads thus: -
'The long-sought after and desired Perpetuum Mobile has been invented and constructed recently, through God's grace, here in Gera."



DT:
Signed, Merseburg, 31st October 1715,
by
Julius Bernhard Von Rohr - Special Commissioner (of
Saxony’s Hochfûrst)
Wolff Dietrick Bose
August Leidenfrost - Councillor to Polish Court and
Elector of Saxony
Carl August Hûbner
M Christoph Semler - Dean of Ulrich (Saxony)
Christoph Buchtà - Councillor at the Hochfûrst’s
Court
M Alb Zũmmermann - Prof. Math
Friedrick Hoffman -
Christian Wolff - Councillor and Mathematician
D Johann Buckhard Mencke - Councillor and Historian
Christian Benit - Prof Math
Johann Jost Walbaum - Prof Math



JC's book:
The certificate that Karl gave to Orffyreus was similar to the previous ones; it described the precautions taken against fraud; it described the tests that the machine underwent. As previously, it recounts the building and successful testing of machines in 1712, 1714 and 1715 in the various towns. It repeats Orffyreus' complaints about the harassment he has received, the libel and slander, and the sarcastic wagers he has been challenged to enter. It is as a result of all this activity, the certificate says, that Orffyreus has requested from Karl the following action. (12th November of last year, 1717 Kassel Test)

Was Wolff at Kassel test also? Can't remember.

[daxwc]

JC’s book; PERPETUAL MOTION AN ANCIENT MYSTERY SOLVED?:
Wolff never looked at the Kassel machine, preferring to comment on the lighter Merseburg one. It may be that, as he was satisfied that no fraud could possibly be involved in the Orffyrean machine, he saw no reason to examine the new one.

[rasselasss]

I'm not here to argue with any,the mindset from previous posts is how many weights to drive the wheel....this design i@m trying to show is about ..the heavy wheel,alternating between that and a flywheel...it is the DRIVER...your thought on this will be different to what you logically think....remember heavy/light...light /heavy ..heavy/light..since covid my wife is housebound and has alzeimers i do all housework etc.to keep her at home...so my time is if and when i can get on here...

[rasselasss]

Time to spare this morning....to conclude this design....what we have ..an A frame..betwixt an axle ..two bearings and housings ...four retaining collars..to locate axle twixt bearings and locate and contain free rotating disc on axle.....now the tricky part ..precision/static balancing is ultra important(or forget it..wont work)...to the disc we place two stout stopper/pusher blocks of wood...fixing these in the exact locations required will prove difficult and thought provoking.......now the spoke or hammer pusher?puller ..the weight of same has to be calculated according to the weight of the free spinning disc...this spoke /hammer(call it what you like)is permanately fixed to the axle reaching as far as to contact with the attached blocks on the circumference of the disc...making when weight calculated gravity drop down/then contact at 7/8 oclock to return to 12 oclock to start process infinitum....good luck ..precision/static balance /location of push/puller..will be deciding factor for your success....to add the weight of hammer/pusher is a big factor to consider..too heavy will stall disc...

[Fletcher]

A recap for those just dropping in .. thx rasselasss for your time ..

To continue,..the spoke number is important to some here ...but the question is..when is a spoke not a spoke..how do we see and make it perform a different task and in a different manner....in preparation you need these instructions and information,..perfect balance...precision build..excellent bearings...an axle of good quality and a hub to attach to the axle and excellent fit{dimensions obvious to size required and discussed later.....i am not scripted and will continue in a few days when time permits...

Fletcher, as you and others here will know i had success with ,my hollow drum ,fixed baseplate to axle/hub design...but it had complicated mechanism working through aperture in the axle and very little power to drive.....This design when you see and comprehend how it works will i assure you and all here how simple it is to achieve....i Will show it to completion how it works....As John Collins is going to deliver his idea ,out of respect for him i will leave my explanation until after he delivers his...it is the simplicity that will amaze all here ...in plain sight for all to see but hidden because of that ....please no questions until then from any member..

Time to spare this morning....to conclude this design....what we have ..an A frame..betwixt an axle ..two bearings and housings ...four retaining collars..to locate axle twixt bearings and locate and contain free rotating disc on axle.....now the tricky part ..precision/static balancing is ultra important(or forget it..wont work)...to the disc we place two stout stopper/pusher blocks of wood...fixing these in the exact locations required will prove difficult and thought provoking.......now the spoke or hammer pusher?puller ..the weight of same has to be calculated according to the weight of the free spinning disc...this spoke /hammer(call it what you like)is permanately fixed to the axle reaching as far as to contact with the attached blocks on the circumference of the disc...making when weight calculated gravity drop down/then contact at 7/8 oclock to return to 12 oclock to start process infinitum....good luck ..precision/static balance /location of push/puller..will be deciding factor for your success....to add the weight of hammer/pusher is a big factor to consider..too heavy will stall disc...

[rasselasss]

Thanks Fletcher,having read over that...i should add this to explain better,then i'm finished....(hope it makes sense)...when rotation starts the weight of spoke/hammer at 1 oclock...at approx.5 oclock the disc starts to speed(being separate)away from the spoke /hammer...and before the spoke/hammer loses its momentum.6/.7/8 /9 oclock the disc uses and adds its own momentum and force to complete the revolution...it will do this only if everything is perfectly correct....very difficult to put this in words but i believe Fletcher ,you will understand the principle...good luck

[Fletcher]

You might be overestimating my abilities without a picture rasselasss ..

All the best to you and your wife ..