Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

[daxwc]

Fletcher; fwiw I'm not at all worried about it - the Laws are safe

I don’t know about everybody else but I wasn’t worried about the laws in this situation. It should have been a wash. The problem is the sim doesn’t represent real life in all situations.

[Roxaway59]

Bearing in mind what has been said about the Z axis I decided to quickly put together a 2d version of this new idea and after doing some basic simulations I have to say I am surprised at how well this simple idea works. I will post a picture and I would ask those on the forum to reproduce it in WM2D. Eventually it will need a latching mechanism to work properly I think. I've been latching it manually. In my simulation the left hand weight rises nicely and because of the increased acceleration of the wheel and because of the left hand weight effectively falling the weight easily goes back into position allowing the wheel to free wheel to the next push.
Graham

[Fletcher]

Fletcher; fwiw I'm not at all worried about it - the Laws are safe

I don’t know about everybody else but I wasn’t worried about the laws in this situation. It should have been a wash. The problem is the sim doesn’t represent real life in all situations.

Hey dax .. agree - as I've always said once you have a sim and learn some basics it is a very good aid to planning - with the added advantage that you can go nuclear with a push of a button i.e. run a kinematic experiment against the Classical Laws (math) - thus it can also be a powerful predictive tool for "likely" actions which in most cases is entirely reliable imo .. say a lever with weights falling under gravity etc .. in some situations like we've been investigating it can have a few problems and workarounds may be needed .. polygons like the ring can sometimes be problematic because they are not auto-generated "smooth polygons" like circles and squares - in the case above I ran the 4 wt version of the ring on a circle background against the ring polygon built from a script - IOW's I tested different workarounds and the initial slippage was energy wasting for the 4 wts version because it didn't build enough Angular Momentum - but I would have expected the KET to compensate but it seems the slippage (series of stops and starts) is also highly energy wasteful .. gentler curves are no problem with rolling objects etc ..

** What a kinematic sim doesn't do is entirely replace of retire your own knowledge of Physics and Mechanics so you never have to think about the pesky details again - it can enhance that understanding but should not mindlessly replace it imo ..

I generally after running a sim take a breather and stand back and ask myself - did that do what my mind-sim thought would happen ? - does what it show pass the "reasonable sniff test" i.e. if the hackles go up it needs a much closer analysis of why it did what it did - then I simplify further if I can and build variations with changed out/swapped out parts for others than can do the same job - if I get a different result from these workarounds I have to ask why ? - if consistent then I am reasonably confident of the predictive ability ..

Batteries Not Included - User Beware !

[Roxaway59]

After looking at this new idea again I realise that the weight on the left doesn’t go completely back into position. That makes sense and it would no doubt break a law or two if it did. This idea has got me thinking though what if Besslers special principal was based on an adjustable spring? There are lots of over balanced wheel designs that would work if that was possible.
Graham

[Roxaway59]

Here is another weight shifting mechanism.

The one on the right I have shown before and I am comparing it to the one on the left. In each case the blue weight is 3g lighter than the yellow weight. The one on the left behaves very differently when you run Algodoo because it changes the length of the bars holding the weights.
Graham

[Roxaway59]

One thing I couldn't help noticing when experimenting with the storks bill is that it is capable of turning into a Jacobs ladder type arrangement at times. Could it be that Besslers mechanism combined the two of them?
Graham

[gravitationallychallenged]

One thing I couldn't help noticing when experimenting with the storks bill is that it is capable of turning into a Jacobs ladder type arrangement at times. Could it be that Besslers mechanism combined the two of them?
Graham

I've considered storks bills as well, Roxaway. In my opinion they would move too slowly and not keep pace with the wheel's rotation, plus moving a slow moving weight from the center of the wheel towards the rim of the wheel in a linear motion would cause a counter-rotational force. I think Bessler wrote "there's something behind the storks bill" in reference to a prime mover powering it.

I've also considered using weighted levers fastened to a pivots located at the rim of the wheel to lift slave weights towards and away from the axle. Assuming the pivots were located 180 degrees away from each other the acceleration and deceleration forces of the weights being forced inwards and outwards, simultaneously, would be out of the center of gravity but not produce any positive torque. Stork bills would produce the same result, torque impulses that cancel each other out. Positive torque is the key to acceleration.

In my opinion Bessler had a good reason for using the flail analogy in AP. If a weighted flail on the upside of a wheel is forced to fold under its hinge inwards, towards the axle, while, at the same time, a flail on the downside of a wheel is forced to extend over its hinge and outwards, towards the rim of the wheel, it would shift those weights out of the center of gravity. Both hinges would also receive a thrust in the direction of rotation of the wheel and cause acceleration at that moment of inertia.

What I've been pondering is how weights moving close to the center of a wheel travel through space at a very slow rate of speed compared to weights traveling near the rim of the wheel. When figure skaters pull their arms in close to their bodies they are using the inertia stored at the end of their arms to turn their bodies at the center of rotation faster. Fast moving masses contain a lot of kinetic energy while slow moving masses contain less. We can use that to our advantage. The prime objective of the wheel's mechanism is to use gravity to produce only rotational, not counter rotational, forces. The speed of an outward moving weight has to accelerate to at least match the speed of travel at the rim of the wheel while an inward moving weight has to decelerate to match the speed of travel near the axle. The law of inertia states that masses only want to move in a straight line. When you force weights to change direction rapidly, or stop abruptly, you are creating an unnatural situation. That diverted energy has to go somewhere and creates a reaction. We want to direct those forces to produce positive torque and accelerate the wheel.

Bessler's wheels obtained full operating speed within 3 revolutions. That is extremely fast acceleration for heavy wheels containing lead weights! Within smaller wheels the mechanisms would have had to be cycling within split seconds while revolving at 50 rpm. Bessler said that he used some type of a mechanism to enable lighter weights to lift heavier weights. The only way that can happen is with heavier weights being arranged near the center of the wheel. Lighter weights located near the rim on the downside of the wheel can then have enough leverage to lift the heavier prime mover weights to the top of the axle where they can fall and shift the slave weights out of the center of gravity again. The weight moving mechanisms must move in a way that the weights "gain force from their movement" and produce substantial torque.

Bessler called his invention a wheel for the lifting of weights. It takes torque to lift a weight above the point of a lever.

[Roxaway59]

Hi Gravitationallychallenged, all these points you are writing about are all important points and you have raised quite a few so I will try to respond to them but probably not in the right order.

If you go to page 14 of this thread you will see an idea I posted that I think is like the flail idea you are talking about. I actually made many versions of this because I felt it had merit. There is also another one I did a long time ago that was a lot more complicated and I built that in WM2D. Unfortunately I lost all my old WM2D files. If I can find any pictures of it I will post them.

I’ve looked at many gravity wheel ideas over the years and the ones I prefer to experiment with are ones that simply over balance but without changing the weights distance from the axle. I usually attempt to move their position around the circumference creating a wide pendulum. I should add that doing it in this way does usually change the speed of the wheel though depending on how its done. Having said that I don’t like the idea of being fixed in my ways because when dealing with an unknown I like to remain as open minded as possible.

I never liked the idea of messing with the storks bill but since experimenting with them they do open up certain possibilities like on the weight shifting mechanism just shown.

I’m not great at remembering all the things that bessler said word for word but I think he said something about the weight rising fast. Can you imagine what that would do for the angular momentum and speed of the wheel?

There is a way though of raising the weight really quickly without changing the angular momentum much and that is by doing it in the way I have been proposing on this thread. By swiveling weights on the rim keeping it at the same distance from the axle you can swing a pendulum from 6 o’clock to 12 o’clock.

For the time being I will be focusing on getting this idea to work. At the moment I am looking at this idea of using springs or some other mechanism instead of the blue lever weight in my descriptions. I will post some more on this soon.
Graham

[Roxaway59]

I know with this spring idea I am in danger of stepping out into the realms of fantasy and making a magical propulsion devise so we can all enjoy space travel so i'm putting my feet back on the ground for a minute.

Lets say that Bessler did something like this but he didn't use basic springs to lift the weights at 9 o'clock. Instead he used a mechanism that could lift the weight and latch for a short time releasing it at about 7 mins to 12 so gravity could return it.
Here it is in Algodoo.
Graham

[Roxaway59]

First take the wheel anticlockwise a little then run with the motor taking it clockwise then pause just as the weight is before 9 o'clock.

Then disable the motor remove the fixate from the arm so the weight can move. Then run again.

As the springs stop lifting the weight pause again and hold the arm once more with a fixate. Run again.

The wheel will now build up a little speed and when the weight gets to about 7 mins to pause again.

Remove the fixate from the arm, delete the springs and run again. The arm will fall and when the weight is right next to the green bumper pause again

Fixate the arm once more and run. The wheel will now free wheel.

When the other weight gets to 9 o'clock repeat the process again missing out the part where you used the motor.

Its a bit long winded and I'm wondering if this is the kind of thing Besslers wheel did albeit with a special lifting device instead of springs.
Graham

[Roxaway59]

There is something that I would like to ask the forum members to see if the task I have in mind is feasible and if so whether they would take part.

I want to see if it is possible to partly back engineer Besslers wheel using logic and maths from the known facts that we have. This may have already been done in the past but I don’t know if it has.
Graham

[agor95]

There is something that I would like to ask the forum members to see if the task I have in mind is feasible and if so whether they would take part.

There are many ways to back engineer Bessler's work. If you think about it most are doing that already.

Regards

[Roxaway59]

Yes I agree and what I would like to do is build up a picture of the possible lay out of the weights and find what is and what isn't possible.
Graham

[Tarsier79]

Although it seems logical to go down that path, there is no weight "layout" that specifically conforms to the acceleration or speed of Besslers wheels. CF can become an issue, but it is easy enough to overcome in most cases.

Understanding electronics, you should know about power consumption. It is this mechanical issue we have to overcome. IMO, the absolute options are OU, or a hidden power source. So far, no-one has come up with a feasible way to have faked Besslers demonstration wheels.

Discovering Besslers wheel will not be chance, or a logical weight layout. It will be finding the power source and how to use it.

[SHADOW]

Bonjour à tous!
Il m'est venu une idée saugrenue en analysant ce que nous disposions comme éléments techniques à notre disposition pour la réalisation de la roue.
Bessler dit quelque part que s'il n'avait pas pratiqué l'art du facteur d'orgues il n'aurais pas trouvé sa solution.
Jusqu'ici nous ne tenons compte que des éléments mécaniques, hors il y a un élément essentiel dans la facture d'orgue que nous négligeons.
N'aurait il pas inclus ? dans sa roue un ou plusieurs systèmes de soufflage pneumatique pour alléger les poids remontant? ou pour accélérer la chute.
Je sais, c'est tordue comme idée mais je dois en faire part.

Hello everyone!
A crazy idea came to me when I analyzed what we had as technical elements at our disposal for the realization of the wheel.
Bessler says somewhere that if he had not practiced the art of the organ builder he would not have found his solution.
So far we only take into account mechanical elements, except there is an essential element in the organ making that we neglect.
Wouldn’t he have included? in his wheel one or more pneumatic blowing systems to lighten the lifting weights?or to accelerate the fall.
I know it’s a twisted idea, but I have to share it.