Long ago and far away

[Patrick]

He did give us free will.

"I have set before you life and death, therefore choose life. Deuteronomy 30:19"

Freewill and predesitination, both programs running simultaneously, funny how God has all the bases covered. Is that fair? Impossible and foolishness according to man's wisdom but the power of God for those that believe.

"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? "

[rlortie]

Boy! you Bible thumpers are busy this week you have managed to screw up at least three threads in the last couple of days.

Do not get uptight as I am not an atheist, But I do not attempt to bring God into every thread posted on this forum. You remind me of spreading cancer eating your way through one topic and then another.

You screwed up Lloyds thread so bad that he must of left the group as I have seen no response from him.

I will give some credit, at least we got one full page on this thread before bringing God into it.

My wish would be to see all this pompous deity arguing kept in "Off Topic"

Ralph

[AgingYoung]

I've seen a wide range of subjects in a thread with no relationship to the thread yet no complaint. For instance the 'it would be nobler to clear bessler...' talks about all sorts of things. In the market place of ideas all ideas should be welcome for debate. I wish they were yet that's not the case. You have the bible thumpers on one hand yet you have the thumpers of the bible thumpers on the other and they seem to get a pass for their antisocial and anti*intellectual behavior.

Some points I got from Lloyd's thread are that people looking to cause gravity to turn a shaft were possibly deluded then also there was the idea that he wanted to figure out a principle. He was a bit contradictory in what he was saying. My point was there is a God that could cause man to look forever and a day for the nose right under his face. Isn't it somewhat strange that Bessler had a wheel that would work yet no one since him has been able to duplicate it. Lot of good minds under the bridge since Bessler. Another point I made was that the law of conservation has played a big role in sidetracking people's focus away from what might be possible.

I think if someone has an absurd position regarding anything yet more importantly about God it's not an arrogant argument to expect them to defend their perspective and particularly when they want to ridicule you to the point you keep quiet about yours. That's a reasonable request. There are several reasons for making that politically incorrect point. It doesn't serve any purpose for people to hold absurd perspectives and the discourse might cause them to think. It should certainly cause them to think that you're entitled to your views as much as they are theirs.

Gene

[ovyyus]

I agree Ralph - religious discussion should be kept to the "Off Topic" section of the forum. Why don't we put it to a vote...

[AgingYoung]

Fascinating idea to put religious speech to a vote. Why not put the idea of editing all thread with off topic material from the thread to an off topic. Why is it just religious speech you'd want to ostracize? That is an idea that is incredibly fascinating to me. I guess if you can't silence people with ridicule you can always legislate them to shut up. Canada has done that; some ur*a*peein countries also have.

Gene

[AgingYoung]

I have a better idea than putting it to a vote. How about if you're not interested in reading something just don't read it. How novel is that? In other words allow people to have their opinions. If you don't like them just skip them. Often when I'm reading Ken I skim thru it. I would agree that isn't as fascist as an idea as you suggest but it could work.

Gene

ps: have you evolved from invertebrate yet? Has that pasta evolved into a noodle yet?

[ovyyus]

Gene, you're a rude old fool... because religious debate, like political debate, often turns into a never ending opinion based argument where neither side is prepared to listen or progress beyond their own fixed point of view. Debate of this nature is often divisive and distracting and there is rarely a right or wrong resolution capable of satisfying all points of view.

I'm not suggesting that the topic should be banned, just restricted to an area where other topics and threads won't be hijacked by heated never-ending off-topic debate about personal religious belief's.

We already know what you think, now why not see what the community thinks and take it from there - if that's alright with King Gene :P

http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1155

[AgingYoung]

Bill,

You're style hasn't changed. The best you can do is call people names. You're probably older than I am, yet that's a bit impertinent. Perhaps you have a point about the fool though. It might be foolish to expect you to answer the simple question of why you believe your views are superior to other's. Debate does get heated when people have emotional beliefs that lack sound reasoning; they tend to get emotional and maybe sling a few names. That seems the case with you. What your asking is absurd though. People have a right to reason from any perspective they'd care to. The fascist concept of limiting people's reasoning to what you're comfortable with is a bit self centered. It's not surprising.

Gene, you're a rude old fool

That's not rude? You're hilarious, Bill.

A. Gene Young

ps: Incidently how old am I? See how presumptuous you are? You lack sound reasoning. I don't notice that comment directed at anyone. Must be your conscience kicking in.

[ovyyus]

ps: have you evolved from invertebrate yet? Has that pasta evolved into a noodle yet?

Gene, was your above comment to me, which I responded to by calling you a rude old windy fool (oops, don't think I said windy), meant as a compliment? If so, then I take it all back.

[bluesgtr44]

You must be psychic to know how much I've read. Maybe it's that since with all that I've read and can't come to the same conclusion you do that I must not be 'getting' it. I'm sure your heart is in the right place. Perhaps you should slap yourself a few more times.

A legend in your own mind, Gene...no problem with pompacity, arrogance and all those other great traits that ....well, you could just SLAP them right out of yourself. You won't.....Sorry.


Steve

P.S. I think others understood what I was sayiing...You...will never get it. Legend...

[AgingYoung]

Steve,

P.S. I think others understood what I was sayiing...You...will never get it. Legend...

Yes, you're right. I'll never get how you could know what others think. I think you have an unfounded conclusion there. It's ironic for you to suggest I should read more after you finish reading a post yet fail to see the point.

I'll be direct. Not everyone is a Bessler. Not everyone learns the same from a failed build. My suggestion is to be more analytical concerning what you've attempted to accomplish and what went wrong.

I'll state what I think was the point of your response and you correct me if I'm wrong. Everyone learns something from a failed build. I'd disagree if that was your point. If you think that makes me a legend, well...

Gene

ps: ovy, my boy, you're a waste of my time. About all you have that I'm interested in is an explanation as to why you think your ignorant (maybe a God exists, who knows) tautological (It is what it is) view of God is superior to the view that there is a creative God and also why you feel it necessary to call people names that disagree with you.

[ovyyus]

ps: Incidently how old am I? See how presumptuous you are? You lack sound reasoning. I don't notice that comment directed at anyone. Must be your conscience kicking in.

Conscience aside for the moment, my reasoning was based on a previous post you made in response to Robert's 51st birthday - here http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... ght=#19855

You said, "Happy birthday Robert. If you slow down on those birthday's I might lap you..."

I got the feeling that you might be really old, like nearly 100. You seem to have the "bitter" part totally down pat - I wonder why?

Incidentally, in another post you said that you have 3 sons, I might hazard a rough guess that they're probably in their early to mid 50's and their names are Caleb, David and Veronica. But then I've never been all that successful at guessing, as you surely know by now.

[bluesgtr44]

Yes, you're right. I'll never get how you could know what others think.

Gene....that is YOU. Saying something as broad as you have you are assuming what the person may be looking for in these designs. So, true to your nature....you just go off assuming that they are all trying to get a working PM out of it....not true!

Oh, And you are an arrogant ASS! I don't know why, but you are.....I will just try to ignore you from now on....you have no benefit to this site....sorry!


Steve

[michael_vanston]

OK guys I think itÂ’s time for one big group hug!
We need a lady forum member to come in and settle us guys down. Bring in some more compassion. Too much ego and testosterone here!

Why not just agree to disagree and move on.

We are all here to rediscover the device Bessler built not to put each other down about each others personal beliefs.

Michael

[Wheeler]

I noticed someone listening to the debate.
This is what she has to say.

You guys are lucky Im here to help you all understand what getting lucky is.