Yes Fletcher looks like you are right and all the time I've been using the damn thing I have misunderstood the bottom part where the direction is I didn't think it was active. Because of the other issues associated with it I think I'm still going to just use it for animations and drawings.
Graham
Besslers prime mover and its enabler.
Moderator: scott
Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.
Fletcher am I right in thinking that when air resistance is on in WM2D its simply static air and when its turned off its basically a vacuum? This is how I have always thought of it.
Graham
Graham
Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.
Yes, when I looked at your Algodoo sim I saw a air/wind direction and magnitude etc - so I altered it to zero (no air "force") and also tried it with the direction vertical up or down which also worked .. in WM when air resistance (force) is OFF it is equivalent of being in a vacuum with zero dissipative energy losses to air frictions .. I build all models this way and then add back air frictions as a quick and dirty "load/work" test which can be quickly adjusted up or down for sensitivity analysis ..
Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.
An advantage I guess with with Algodoo "wind" force is that you could design a propeller or equivalent i.e. an air or watermill - an overshot or undershot turbine for example ..
In WM I have to create a fake force that blows in one direction, and it takes a bit of work ..
In WM I have to create a fake force that blows in one direction, and it takes a bit of work ..
Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.
I think what's happened is I've been building small models for so long that I never noticed the effect of a side wind. What has fooled me though is at the bottom when you click on air it seems to have its own section where it says Wind Speed and Wind Direction. The Wind Speed is always on 0 so I took it that it wasn't doing anything. Am I the only one who has taken it this way?
Graham
Graham
Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.
After all this I'm starting to wonder what else I might be getting wrong about Algodoo.
I realize that this is my own fault. I usually only concern myself with just the basics of what I need to do so I'm not the kind of person who try's out absolutely everything to see what it does. I've had my car for nearly twenty years and even now there are some buttons in there that I haven't pressed. I suppose I'm afraid the bonnet might fall off or something.
The trouble is I tend to treat computer programs the same way. I don't think I will have missed too much in the simulations I have done because I have a tendency to turn air resistance off and to put more interesting simulations into WM2D.
That being said if there is anyone on the forum who is an expert at using Algodoo who has any tips on using it with gravity wheels in mind then I'm all ears.
Graham
I realize that this is my own fault. I usually only concern myself with just the basics of what I need to do so I'm not the kind of person who try's out absolutely everything to see what it does. I've had my car for nearly twenty years and even now there are some buttons in there that I haven't pressed. I suppose I'm afraid the bonnet might fall off or something.
The trouble is I tend to treat computer programs the same way. I don't think I will have missed too much in the simulations I have done because I have a tendency to turn air resistance off and to put more interesting simulations into WM2D.
That being said if there is anyone on the forum who is an expert at using Algodoo who has any tips on using it with gravity wheels in mind then I'm all ears.
Graham
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Robinhood46
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Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.
I took it the same way.
If wind is off there isn't any friction with the air, so the direction is irrelevant.
Maybe putting wind direction in the same axis as gravity will be a good idea, and play with up or down.
In the beginning i struggled with the accuracy and made huge wheels of 1km in diameter, and wondered why they didn't do what i expected, and needed such powerful motors, or ridiculously heavy weights to get them moving.
It is possible to work with precision with a Bessler size wheel. If you explain what you have difficulty doing precisely, i will be happy to make a short video showing how to do it, if i can do what you are having difficulty with obviously.
If wind is off there isn't any friction with the air, so the direction is irrelevant.
Maybe putting wind direction in the same axis as gravity will be a good idea, and play with up or down.
In the beginning i struggled with the accuracy and made huge wheels of 1km in diameter, and wondered why they didn't do what i expected, and needed such powerful motors, or ridiculously heavy weights to get them moving.
It is possible to work with precision with a Bessler size wheel. If you explain what you have difficulty doing precisely, i will be happy to make a short video showing how to do it, if i can do what you are having difficulty with obviously.
Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.
I think I will just use it with the air resistance off and make my wheels about 2M from now on and see how I get on. If I do come across something I'm not sure of though I will ask you so thanks for that.
Graham
Graham
Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.
I have been doing some experimenting with levers with weight shifting capability. I've been noticing some unusual effects too when they oscillate sometimes. Basically I will have to do a lot more work to see if I have anything useful for my wheel but either way it is interesting if not a bit frustrating at times.
Graham
Graham
Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.
Ne baissez pas le bras Graam! nous passons tous par ces phases et si vous êtes bien piqué par le virus vous rebondirez.
J.B
Don’t give up Graam! We all go through these phases and if you are well bitten by the virus you will bounce back.
J.B
J.B
Don’t give up Graam! We all go through these phases and if you are well bitten by the virus you will bounce back.
J.B
Last edited by SHADOW on Thu Feb 29, 2024 6:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
La propriété, c'est le vol!
P.J. PROUDHON
P.J. PROUDHON
Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.
Thanks Shadow and what ever happens I wont give up until the mystery is solved.
The other thing that I wont do is hold back. If I find the answer I will post it on the forum the same day.
Graham
The other thing that I wont do is hold back. If I find the answer I will post it on the forum the same day.
Graham
Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.
Fletcher I have a question about something relating to levers.
Most of the levers I have attempted for my wheel have been straight forward levers. If you remember one of the last wheels you simulated for me was a very close thing. If I remember correctly it actually ran on your copy of WM2D but you said it was so close it was probably in equilibrium or words to that effect.
Those simple levers are obviously not ideal though because as they fall and make some kind of collision they waste some energy meaning that the weights on my wheel didn’t end up in an optimum position. Despite this the simulation looked promising.
My question is shouldn't levers that use ramps to shift the lever weight be more efficient at being able to optimise the position of the weights or have I got this wrong?
A lot of the simulations I’ve done seem to indicate that this is the case.
Graham
Most of the levers I have attempted for my wheel have been straight forward levers. If you remember one of the last wheels you simulated for me was a very close thing. If I remember correctly it actually ran on your copy of WM2D but you said it was so close it was probably in equilibrium or words to that effect.
Those simple levers are obviously not ideal though because as they fall and make some kind of collision they waste some energy meaning that the weights on my wheel didn’t end up in an optimum position. Despite this the simulation looked promising.
My question is shouldn't levers that use ramps to shift the lever weight be more efficient at being able to optimise the position of the weights or have I got this wrong?
A lot of the simulations I’ve done seem to indicate that this is the case.
Graham
Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.
I think Graham you'd have to do some side-by-side comparison sims to compare their efficiencies to see if there was any advantage - all transactions have energy losses, unavoidable - collisions are a big waster of energy (dissipative energy losses - deformation, heat, sound, vibration etc) - so we can adjust the elasticity factor to minimize this etc, turn air frictions off etc - however, rolling objects up ramps has other friction losses being static friction and rolling friction to accommodate - both of these can also be minimized - then in WM you can use slides which can be frictionless for the sim to make things close to perfect conditions as you can get ..
In short any physical transaction between objects always has dissipative energy losses - while it good to minimize them, and we can do this well in sims, no wheel is going to be self-moving by minimizing wasted energy losses [ that's why the Orffyrean Roller Bearing Theory is imo a complete myth and red hearing ] - there has to be true and prolonged imbalance torque to cause a bona-fide acceleration and gain in system momentum - and I believe that can not be achieved by manipulating Archimedean Law of Levers which is founded on strict unyielding ratios - it requires a different, unique, engineering approach which will be difficult to find, but when found will be simple to understand in an OOB wheel context, and will be relatable to some of the Toy's Page symbolism, imo ..
In short any physical transaction between objects always has dissipative energy losses - while it good to minimize them, and we can do this well in sims, no wheel is going to be self-moving by minimizing wasted energy losses [ that's why the Orffyrean Roller Bearing Theory is imo a complete myth and red hearing ] - there has to be true and prolonged imbalance torque to cause a bona-fide acceleration and gain in system momentum - and I believe that can not be achieved by manipulating Archimedean Law of Levers which is founded on strict unyielding ratios - it requires a different, unique, engineering approach which will be difficult to find, but when found will be simple to understand in an OOB wheel context, and will be relatable to some of the Toy's Page symbolism, imo ..
Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.
I can’t really disagree with anything you are saying Fletcher and the main reason I asked the question is because I know that anything I do to actually improve on that last sim you did for me would be amazing.
I am deliberately not looking at the laws of the lever because to be honest I know some basic ones and I feel I need to stick to imagining different ways of doing things and hope that I can stumble on something that is important. There are plenty of times though when I realise that such an approach without paying more attention to laws can and does waste time and money.
I have of course realised that no ordinary lever will do to put my weights where they need to be. I am officially on the hunt for the magical prime mover. I am thinking that this is a special kind of lever so here is another question for you.
Levers can take many forms.
If we assume that a lever system how ever complicated in it's design cannot have an advantage over a simple lever system then can we agree that the prime mover could be a simple lever working in harmony with some other mechanism that is not itself a lever?
If so then what other non lever mechanism can work in harmony with a lever and to what end since most of the time we are trying to lever weights to give us some kind of imbalance?
In my case there wouldn’t be any point in searching for something that can not ultimately lift weights I would have to find something that just naturally put them there.
Lastly since what Bessler created apparently side stepped a law or two then why shouldn’t one of those laws be the law of levers? Do you see how I kinda ended up going round in circles with those lol.
Your recent analysis or back engineering is the kind of thing that I felt should have been done a long time ago because I believe that we are acting like detectives at a crime scene. There is no point in waiting for the criminal to come up to us and say “Ello gov’na, awright I admit it, I done it, its a fair cop”. We just have to take what there is and use it and I liked the reasoning that took place.
Graham
I am deliberately not looking at the laws of the lever because to be honest I know some basic ones and I feel I need to stick to imagining different ways of doing things and hope that I can stumble on something that is important. There are plenty of times though when I realise that such an approach without paying more attention to laws can and does waste time and money.
I have of course realised that no ordinary lever will do to put my weights where they need to be. I am officially on the hunt for the magical prime mover. I am thinking that this is a special kind of lever so here is another question for you.
Levers can take many forms.
If we assume that a lever system how ever complicated in it's design cannot have an advantage over a simple lever system then can we agree that the prime mover could be a simple lever working in harmony with some other mechanism that is not itself a lever?
If so then what other non lever mechanism can work in harmony with a lever and to what end since most of the time we are trying to lever weights to give us some kind of imbalance?
In my case there wouldn’t be any point in searching for something that can not ultimately lift weights I would have to find something that just naturally put them there.
Lastly since what Bessler created apparently side stepped a law or two then why shouldn’t one of those laws be the law of levers? Do you see how I kinda ended up going round in circles with those lol.
Your recent analysis or back engineering is the kind of thing that I felt should have been done a long time ago because I believe that we are acting like detectives at a crime scene. There is no point in waiting for the criminal to come up to us and say “Ello gov’na, awright I admit it, I done it, its a fair cop”. We just have to take what there is and use it and I liked the reasoning that took place.
Graham
Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.
Just to be clear though Fletcher when I said side stepped I didn't mean broken. Maybe somehow he found some natural way to get the weights where they needed to be that wasn't a lever system. Which maybe why he said about levering 4 of something with just 1 but accepting the law of levers. Maybe he is telling us that his prime mover acted like a magic lever but wasn't a lever.
Graham
Graham