Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

[agor95]

Hi Graham [Roxaway59]

Not sure if is always chaos. Pls see the link below. Some WM attached inside post as well.
https://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/view ... s&start=30

I could see the YouTube animations and could imaging there maybe a resonance in the pendulum
that harmonises with the stored disc rotation. The maths to study this is diabolical.
It has a look of a non-linear partial differential equation of a parasitic oscillation.

I am looking for a simpler device design.

P.S. 'It did for the most part seem to act like a clock.' How dare you, that is heresy :)

Regards

[Fletcher]

Hi Fletcher once again I like your reasoning with your last 2 posts.

In my non technical way I got used to thinking of Besslers later wheels like this.

Once his wheels were turned they naturally took up the correct overbalanced shape which then allowed the force of gravity to take over.

Since it didn't take much energy for it to take up the shape, it now had lots of spare energy to give.

The shape it took had in effect latched itself into position and was stable.

It was self governing in that it limited its own speed but if it was loaded it resisted slowing down.

We can help our selves by asking what mechanism does that? It did for the most part seem to act like a clock.
Graham

I wouldn't disagree with your thoughts there Graham .. if you stand back far enough that about sums it up for me too ..

[Trev]

It was self governing in that it limited its own speed but if it was loaded it resisted slowing down.

I've long thought the one directional wheels were in balance when in motion, but for some reason it never occurred to me that was the reason that it resisted slowing down - Thank you.

[agor95]

I've long thought the one directional wheels were in balance when in motion, but for some reason it never occurred to me that was the reason that it resisted slowing down.

We maybe looking at the same effect from several view points.

We are looking at a device that moves objects so their weight pressing down in the
device is more on one side than the other. And as the device's rotation increases
the weight on the downward side reduces.

There is another effect of where the cost of accelerating one object is less than the cost of decelerating another. This is perceived as counter torque as one object is lifted while another falls.

Regards

[Roxaway59]

Hi Trev, you are welcome.

From a back engineering point of view I am now thinking of this as the best approach and I'm going to treat it like a clock.

All clocks have a store of energy as with a main spring or a falling weight. I am assuming that Besslers store of energy was the moving weights on his wheel which he described as swinging.

So we can assume that the swinging weights were both an energy source and the timing device.

When the later wheels were given a push this set the weights in motion which took up the dynamic shape they needed to take and as that happened gravity kicked in supplying the weights from the movement of the wheel with the energy they needed to continue their swing with no further input needed.

Gravity helped to turn the wheel which in turn kept the weights where they felt compelled to stay.

You can look at this as a positive feedback loop and the frequency of the wheel was its resonant frequency.

Like a microphone when it feeds back the sound it makes is its resonant frequency.

Now here’s the important bit.

When something is at its resonant frequency under normal circumstances it needs an energy source to maintain it.

However, Besslers machine was kept at resonance by the same force that was also responsible in part for its timing and that acted upon all of its individual parts as well as the shape that the collective weights took.

In other words the power source behaved like an integral part of the machine instead of being something separate.

That is what I believe Besslers wheel did. So what I think we have to do is create mechanisms that behave like that and we will have this cleared up before the year has ended.
Graham

[agor95]

Hi Graham [Roxaway59]

From a back engineering point of view I am now thinking of this as the best approach and I'm going to treat it like a clock.

Well it's best to have a potential principle than none at all.

As we know old wrist watches could store spring P.E. by their irregular motion of the owner.

So some integrated swinging/rotating could be involved in storing energy to feedback into the
devices operation.

Good Luck

[Sam Peppiatt]

Testing, is it working----------------Sam

No; forget it.

[Fletcher]

Graham .. and interesting rebuttal ..

JC's AP Bessler Rebuttal to Wagner's Critiques ..

XXI Here Wagner lists all mechanical implements (“ XX1 Mechanical Tools “ - W’s. Paragraph Heading)

Wagner seems almost to have run out of fancies. He says nothing can be achieved with "mechanical implements", the gist being that my Mobile must be impossible because I designed it to be driven by some "mechanical power". But did I not, in Part One, devote more than one line to a discussion of the type of "excess impetus" that people should look for in my devices? Once more I will humbly extol the virtues of this passage to my next worthy reader. Even Wagner, wherever he is now, will have heard that one pound can cause the raising of more than one pound. He writes that, to date, no one has ever found a mechanical arrangement sufficient for the required task. He's right! So am I, and does anyone see why? What if I were to teach the proper method of mechanical application? Then people would say: "Now I understand!”

AFAIK Wagner was a skilled mechanic and mathematician - and was well versed in, and competent with, MA i.e. the use of MA in machines, tools, implements, arrangements, and applications thereof .. so was Borlach and the master model maker of Dresden Gartner ..

[Fletcher]

Wagner .. XXXVII. That I did not give the speed of the wheel built by me, as Orffyreus does for his, is intentional because I cannot conceive a reason why the wheel must revolve precisely 50 times per minute and why it may not go more slowly or more quickly. The rapid and constant motion is an infallible indication that his wheel is no genuine perpetual motion machine. If the motion should originate in the superior force of the weight, then the weight cannot possibly rise up several ells immediately in a flash, indeed if it falls to the other side of the wheel and should give it a jolt, then it can hardly fall as rapidly as the underlying compartment descends. Moreover, the wheel could not run so constantly because for any perpetual motion the preponderant weight (whatever material may constitute it) on the side of the wheel which is so preponderated must be brought closer to the axis (which is impossible as extensively enlarged on above) in order that it can be more easily raised, as soon the preponderant weight is raised over the hypomochlium, thus it must cross over to the other side of the wheel and be brought to the periphery of the wheel; now the transit is stratified and the superior force distances itself further and further from the point at rest and gravitates more and more as a consequence of the principle of conveyance, thus at the same time the wheel necessarily must go more slowly, and the further the weight comes from the point at rest, the faster the wheel goes, whence it follows that the wheel can go a) not so rapidly and b) not constantly but just the opposite. Not to mention that the strong collusion, in which the weight comes to rest at the bottom of the wheel and through the turning comes to lie at the other side of the compartment, comes about, thus the running and movement of the wheel are again and again interrupted and hindered, which is well-known from similar things that have been modelled and inspected.

Bessler .. XXXVII (b) Here Wagner apologises for the fact that his turnspit cannot revolve as fast as my wheel, but adds that it doesn't need to

See Wagner's childish nonsense. He says that my Mobile turns too quickly. It should be different, and not go at such a fast, regular clip. No Mobile should revolve so fast! Wagner, don't take it amiss, but where, in your Bible, (or whatever other book you read instead) does it say this? Please show me the passage! Seriously, aren't you concerned that people are going to laugh at you? Just because your device doesn't run very fast, you lay into mine! If I was to make a slow-running wheel, again it wouldn't be worth much, would it? But this I dare to claim - if God allowed me a long enough life I could make my wheel go really slowly, with a gentle rhythm, and it would still be able to raise even greater weights! Then what would you say, Wagner? I could write more, but I must press on to the finish. It's no matter - I don't wish to go into the details here of how suddenly the excess weight is caused to rise. You can't comprehend these matters, or see how true craftsmanship can rise above innate lowly tendencies (as does a weight above the point of application of a lever).

Wagner was well aware of MA etc .. Yet B. says W. couldn't comprehend these matters of how excess weight is caused to suddenly rise ..

[Fletcher]

JC's AP Bessler Rebuttal to Wagner's Critiques ..

XVII (b) References to various points in the Merseburg tract

Wagner now begins to pick through every little detail of our description, and ridicules the great patron who speaks in favour of my machine, but little does he (the Patron) care, for all of us already know well enough what lying edifices he builds, and what a stinking scumbag he is, who wallows in his own filth. Leave great men unmolested, Wagner, you foul, odorous, pig, if you wish ever to be free of disgrace! My Patron is an honourable friend, who means well to all men, but he will personally take his revenge on you, and I shall not want to be involved.

Wagner describes how he thinks my machine is constructed; he babbles about "excess weights" being snatched along, by means of "internal motive power", in a frequently-repeated cycle of up and down movements. According to him, Nature dictates that things gravitate downwards. But the weights which rest below must, in a flash, be raised upwards, and it is this that Wagner cannot force himself to accept. But, crazy Wagner, just note that that is indeed the case with my device. But if anyone should presume to say that my Wheel is definitely such-and-such without having seen it, he is a fool and a fantasizer of the first order. He deserves to have a donkey's tail affixed to his lying rump.

[Roxaway59]

Hi Fletcher, its a bit difficult working out how to interpret some of the things wrote by Bessler. When it comes to the weight rising fast could he have been talking about this kind of action?
Graham

[Roxaway59]

I don't know if I have already posted this simulation before but I just added a little spring dampening. In my version of WM2D I can only run it on Fast because it locks up on other settings. Its mainly the upwards swinging action I'm trying to show though.
Graham

[Tarsier79]

Quick note. If you select all, click do not collide, it stopped accelerating for me. It should still slow down with wind resistance I would think. Not sure why it does not.

[Fletcher]

When it comes to the weight rising fast could he have been talking about this kind of action?

I don't know if I have already posted this simulation before but I just added a little spring dampening. In my version of WM2D I can only run it on Fast because it locks up on other settings. Its mainly the upwards swinging action I'm trying to show though.

Graham

Hi Graham .. I have tweaked your sim a little - accuracy still set at Fast and 50 fps - n.b. parallelograms are always problematic with either lock-up or exploding sims - all you can do is play around with accuracy setting and workarounds etc as we've discussed in other threads ..

Anywaze .. a nice attempt at finding a Self-Exciting Mode i.e. an exercise in creating a Positive Feedback Loop .. for those following you used dual synchronized pendulums to give amplitude and period and the restoration force/energy is provided by the dampened spring - Motor driven initially for the first 10 secs .. looking particularly for a greater upswing generation ( the rise fast )..

The result of the sim was that after the motor turned off the system was indeed oscillating, but the system amplitude was not growing i.e. no self-excitation which I believe is the goal in order to duplicate B's. wheels performances - the amplitude gradually decreased and the sim rotation slowed down until it reached its position of least GPE ( balance position ) and stopped .. sim attached ..

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[Fletcher]

Hi Fletcher, its a bit difficult working out how to interpret some of the things wrote by Bessler.

Hi Graham .. it is difficult, because he never ever intended to give accurate instructions, to building, or teaching, his "proper method of mechanical application" .. he was well skilled in wordsmithing and distraction imo and used every opportunity to do so ..

However, I did cherry-pick yesterday's Wagner and B. rebuttals because they can be insightful imo ..

** ( fwiw - I think Christian Wagner is one of the unsung hero's of the B. story, who is a convenient foil for B. to use, and dump on )

In this case B. actually uses Wagner's words ( not his own ) .. to paraphrase, Wagner said using weight shifting implements and applications ( i.e. using MA techniques ) is an impossibility because the act of weights transitioning causes the wheel to jolt and "hunt" ( and waste energy ) i.e. this results in a non-regular rpm .. he was saying that B's. wheel had an unnaturally regular clip and were too fast for weights having to be shifted around internally - he then says even if you could manage it the weights would have to be raised upwards "in a flash" - these are Wagner's words .. B. uses Wagner's words and flings back at him ( and the readers ) that indeed they do need to be raised up "in a flash" just as Wagner said .. B. is mocking him and imo also being misleading by using Wagner's description of an impossibility to be raised in a flash ..

W. knew very well, as we all know, that any weights requiring lifting ( whether rapidly/fast, or slow) takes SOME time, especially if the vertical height gain required gets greater ( for more torque, acceleration, and rpm ) etc ..

My proposition is that B's. weights were not raised up "in a flash" at all, but were raised up, just not using the usual and well know MA applications - he discovered a new method of mechanical application that caused the weights to spontaneously rise up on demand - as I said in my last post he discovered an arrangement of mechanical Self-Excitation generated from a Positive Feedback Loop of mechanical interactions - that were not of the same DNA as per Mechanical Advantage techniques of ubiquitous machines, tools, implements, and applications available and comprehended by Wagner et al ..

In short, even B's. weights had to be lifted, but in the physical sense of 'in a flash' is indeed impossible and impracticable - tho metaphorically they conveyed a sense of the lifting required to achieve a fast acceleration and rpm that Wagner could not emulate with MA techniques and applications in his much slower spring-wound replication attempt ..