Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

[Roxaway59]

Hi agor95, I will put some simulations together and post them a bit later today. Can I ask is this site under some kind of cyber attack? There are lots of strange things happening and this sometimes happens when a site is being attacked.
Graham

[johannesbender]

I noticed the new "phpBB forum software" logo on top , perhaps just upgrades ...

[Roxaway59]

I'm in a bit of a rush today so I have put this together as fast I could so apologies if I have made mistakes I haven't had as much time to think things through as I would have liked.

The reference to the AP wheel is based on the movement of the yellow weight and its beam. You will notice that when it gets into maximum swing it moves up from the bottom and finishes its swing around 10 o'clock then begins its downward movement around 2 o'clock.

The Algodoo version stabilizes at certain speeds depending on the load and in so doing behaves like a clock.

I have deliberately used small weights and larger ones can be used to experiment with so its early days at the moment.

I will include a WM2D simulation later when I have more time to work on it.

Description -

Over unity in Algodoo - Yes

Over unity in WM2D - Not yet but it tends to become unstable.

Size - 1M

Maintains a steady rpm - Yes

Contains springs - Yes

Makes a tapping noise - Not yet but this is a possibility.

Miscellaneous - The movement can be associated with the AP wheel.

[Roxaway59]

Just a couple of things to add.

The blue weight nearer the top of the pendulum is behaving as a counter weight.

The simulations I have done so far in WM2D are not quite the same lay out as this Algodoo one.

Graham

[agor95]

Hi Roxaway59

Scott is the best person to answer this question. Some websites sit behind product from cloudflare.
This blocks and assists in DDS attacks. Also statistics on traffic activity.

Hopefully the provider Scott is using has that functionality.

The spurious database corruption reported my be happening to other clients of the platform provider.
So the provider is seeing muck hitting the fan. The provider does not have a good track record in regression testing.
Or arranging maintenance downtime before software changes.

Regards

[Roxaway59]

I have continued these simulations over these past few days and to be honest I’m not quite sure what to make of some of the things I am seeing.

Its clear that what happens in Algodoo is very positive and WM2D disagrees with a lot of what Algodoo is doing but there are some things they seem to agree on.

I modified the last build so that it has stops limiting its movement then later I added a storks bill. At first I thought I was just wasting my time but the effect in Algodoo was very positive and there seems to be a minor positive change in WM2D.

The end result in Algodoo especially if you add more cross bars is that the wheel has a lot of the same known attributes that Besslers wheel had. I’m not for one second trying to say that this is what he built. I’m just saying on paper as far as Algodoo is concerned it ticks a lot of boxes.

The last WM2D version of this I did has been very time consuming to watch. I have the accuracy on fairly high but I have a feeling my old PC is running slow for some reason. It does something that I think is a bit odd but maybe Fletcher and others can explain if it is something or nothing. If I start the simulation close to what appears to be the stable speed it slows down slightly then settles on that speed. If I start the simulation slightly lower than that speed it appears to speed up a little more than it should. This is similar to how Algodoo behaves only it does it better because it goes over unity.

Generally the two simulations don’t seem to behave the same even though they are a similar size and weight. I found that I did have to adjust some things.

Description – Wheel with one cross bar with what I am calling reactive pendulums.

Over unity in Algodoo – Yes

Over unity in WM2D – I don’t think so. ?

Size - 1M

Maintains a steady rpm – Yes in both Algodoo and WM2D

Contains springs - Yes

Makes a tapping noise - Yes

Miscellaneous – These mechanisms contain a storks bill.

I will try to give an explanation later of the basic thinking behind what I am trying to do with these mechanisms.

[Roxaway59]

Here it is in Algodoo with more cross bars. Basically the more cross bars that are on the wheel the stronger it gets.

[Roxaway59]

This is probably one of the most difficult posts for me to make because generally I like to be more specific about the things I’m am talking about but I am not able to do that as much as I would like.

When I first started experimenting in WM2D most of the simulations had pendulums in them. Some times these simulations did something unexpected that I couldn’t explain. The ones I liked best weren’t the ones with pendulums they were the ones with a definite mechanism that was supposed to do a certain thing that I could fully understand.

Is it just me or does anyone else get the feeling that the easier it is to understand a mechanism on a gravity wheel the less likely it is that it will do what you want it to do? All the ones that seem to do something positive are the ones that are hard to work out just by looking at them. If we are talking about something that is hidden but in plain sight I think this fits the bill.

A pendulum is a fairly simple device although the exact math's to go with it is not simple. A double pendulum is again fairly simple but its movement chaotic.

Whatever it is that you do with a pendulum there is one common theme and that is its pivot. What we attempt to do is to get pendulums swinging in such a way that more force is going in the direction that the wheel is turning. This is something that is not suppose to be possible and we all know that force can be there momentarily but then there is an equal one pulling it back.

On a gravity wheel that is given a push something is going to begin swinging as the wheel is rotating. On a working wheel the swinging feeds back to the wheel and the wheel turning feeds back to what ever is swinging in a positive feedback loop using gravity as a force to keep it going.

Eventually it reaches equilibrium as the speed of the wheel can no longer promote any further swinging that can carry on promoting the turning of the wheel.

Question – When Besslers wheel began to knock would the knocking have got louder the faster it went? I suspect that it may have either gone louder or quieter but not remained the same.

Part of the thinking with this idea that I have shown is something I was always doing when I ran upstairs as a child. I would rise my arms sharply as I sprung up from each step. In effect using the immovable stair as a launching pad for my projectile arms to help lift me upwards. It felt easier.

The scientific among us would probably say that I was using energy from muscles in other parts of my body to help lift me upwards and I am sure they are right.

On a gravity wheel what stable parts can we launch something off? I would say the axle mainly at around 12 o’clock ideally.

We can also propel a smaller object momentarily using a more immovable larger one that does not have time to react straight away.

When a magician pulls the table cloth off a table full of crockery he does it quickly so that the crockery can not react to the speed the cloth is moving.

Every action has an equal and opposite reaction but if the cloth is pulled fast the pots hardly move. If it is pulled slow the pots move and smash all over the floor. Two very different outcomes.

It would also be possible to attach a thin piece of cotton to each piece of crockery and the same thing would happen as long as the pull was fast enough.

One thing I am bearing in mind is the thought that the knock on Besslers wheel could be a pause in a pendulums swing which is used to over balance the wheel temporarily before swinging once again. I doubt very much that we are talking about ordinary looking pendulums.

I feel that if we try to make simulations that end up with the same characteristics as Besslers wheel then sooner or later his special principal will reveal itself.

Graham

[agor95]

Hello Roxaway59 [Graham]

This is probably one of the most difficult posts for me to make because generally I like to be more specific about the things I’m am talking about but I am not able to do that as much as I would like.

I appreciate your determination and drive to see through the logic of our current reality.

Even the most simple of things are deep down complex.
The maths for a simple pendulum is only approximate when small angle motion is used.

Then with double pendulums the complexities compound with dynamic feedback loops etc.

Add multiple d. pendulums interacting with each other increases the chaos.

P.S. There are places to hide in plain sight.

Regards

[Roxaway59]

Thanks agor95, this whole things reminds me of when I first got into electronics. I don’t know if I have told this little story before but anyway it wont do any harm to repeat it.

I went to night school to get a taster of what electronics was all about and the chap who was teaching the class had worked on designing electronic circuits.

He was trying to stress something to us pretty much all the way through the lesson and I must admit I found it a bit frustrating because I was really wanting to dive in the deep end and become an expert over night.

Anyway he kept driving it home to us that although certain components are designed to do specific things they also have some of the qualities of other components. For example an ideal resistor is basically one that resists current flow and that’s all but a typical resistor does more than that whether you like it or not. It has inductance and a certain amount of capacitance.

The other thing that he talked very strongly about always stuck in my mind and many years later when I started putting my own circuits together I would find myself remembering his words. He said “just get the thing going, it doesn’t matter too much about calculating things just get the thing going”.

At the time it all seemed a bit daft to me, I mean, how the hell are you suppose to just slap something together and expect it to work?

Years later though that’s exactly what I would find myself doing because sitting down calculating stuff just slows you down and its better to do a rough calculation in your head rather than being precise and then once its working then put more accurate components in.

Yes sure there was the odd smoke signal coming off the bread board sometimes but it was a lot more fun that way.

The reason I’m saying this is I’m starting to think about the Bessler wheel the same way.

Yes we can sit around pondering on why these things are not suppose to work.

Yes we can get ourselves bogged down in mathematics.

Yes we can scratch our heads at some of the conflicting things Bessler said.

Lets just take all the positive things that we know are true and the way his wheel behaved and aim at something that behaves like that and just get it going,

Sounds simple doesn’t it?

Graham

[johannesbender]

The issue with common simple machines is like this , (with no alterations to these simple machines) , if you look at it mathematically , you have an input and an output , and in between the input and output there is a math function , you can alter and invent all sorts of things to do with the input and the output however the function in between remains unchanged and so it does what it always does , and this is why simple machines are predictable in behavior and functionally considered to be known in any configuration you can think up.

However If one were to start designing mechanisms by thinking the total function in between the inputs and outputs to achieve a certain outcome , then you go above and beyond the norm of just using things you are familiar with like plug and playing mindlessly with legos ...

[agor95]

Hi jb

... then you go above and beyond the norm of just using things you are familiar with like plug and playing mindlessly with legos ...

It was said 'God does not play dice'. Well we could also say 'God does not play with Lego bricks'.

Therefore hard components produce less than zero sum results.

If I were to pick a metaphor to describe reality then it would be 'The Dance of Kali'.

What makes up reality are the processes that dance interactively around each other.

Regards

[agor95]

Hi Roxaway59

Lets just take all the positive things that we know are true and the way his wheel behaved and aim at something that behaves like that and just get it going,

Sounds simple doesn’t it?

There is a principle of 'diminished returns' as we use one avenue of investigation the cost starts to out weight the accuracy of the resultant benefit.

Each avenue has a limit to it's scope of use.

The only way to address this is to overlap different avenues and cross check.

That is why I am limiting myself to 'The Tool Kit' material. A physical build, partial computer modelling & simple maths.

P.S. Just a little image as a hint.

Regards

[johannesbender]

Hi jb

... then you go above and beyond the norm of just using things you are familiar with like plug and playing mindlessly with legos ...

It was said 'God does not play dice'. Well we could also say 'God does not play with Lego bricks'.

Therefore hard components produce less than zero sum results.

If I were to pick a metaphor to describe reality then it would be 'The Dance of Kali'.

What makes up reality are the processes that dance interactively around each other.

Regards

Im not sure where this is going.

[phj]

It's so simple. It's all about collision of weights into frames. I have figured it out, all my SIMS are working, from Algoodo to WM2D.

As I strive towards achieving my work goal of creating a functional model in real life, every time new things happen so I get delayed. It's as if something wants to stop/delay my work. Strange.

PHJ