Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

[Sam Peppiatt]

It looks balanced. How can it work if it's balanced--------------Sam

[Roxaway59]

Thanks once again Fletcher for taking the time to do that. The one you did runs much better than mine.

The first post that I put up has once again got me to rethink my strategy in all of this.

Can I just say though to anyone who doesn’t see my thinking at times that I don’t post a lot of these concepts as wheels that by themselves might work.

If you recall Bessler spoke about some of the wheels in his book as possible runners if his special principal was used on them.

They are offered up as concepts that with some possible tweaking here and there might work.

If ever I came across a concept that I knew without doubt was a winner my post on that would be approached very differently.

There are two main things that I find myself thinking about and I’m determined to check them out methodically.

One is levers because many believe that Bessler found a work around for them.

The second is pendulums and I want to hopefully start a discussion on them by asking a question.

Here is the question.

Most people have experimented a lot with pendulums myself included. There are some things about them though that I still have doubts about.

We all know that if you put two typical balanced hanging weights on a wheel and give it a spin that the forces at work will eventually even out and the wheel will just grind to a halt.

If on the other hand these pendulums are not just simple hanging weights but mechanisms that are hanging from a pivot then what? Does it always end the same way no matter what make up the mechanism has?

I would find it interesting to hear what forum members say.

Graham

[Fletcher]

It looks balanced. How can it work if it's balanced --------------Sam

Hey Sam .. you could say that the rig "breathes" in and out - that is, the weights of different colours and masses are able to move about a bit - extending and contracting overall length slightly, and width - the spring holds the rig under tension .. so in certain positions gravity force ( vertical ) and Cf's ( tangential to radius ) either team up or partially work against each other ( aka a net force ) - and this is the cause of the rig "flexing", or changing shape slightly ..

I put rods on each rig from outer yellow weight to near axle and disabled them so they are visually just there but not "holding" anything rigid - then I metered their lengths shown in the output box near the top next to time - you can see the rod length changing very slightly as the rig rotates - this indicates when the rig is lengthening and when it is contracting ..

The only time it is balanced is when both rig measuring rods are the same length, which is for part of the rotation .. the lengthening and shortening is so small that it is hard to notice in the yellow weights "tracking" plot, but it is there ..

[Fletcher]

If you recall Bessler spoke about some of the wheels in his book as possible runners if his special principal was used on them.

Yes, probably the most "in-your-face" examples being MT 44 and MT48, and many others that get a special mention and are much more familiar to us that use forever-tried lever-weights of one sort or another etc .. n.b. none of them can be runners without the addition of his special PM principle - and this appears to be a mechanical application or structure which causes continual imbalance conditions .. and he has some other pointers in MT that mention a zusammen gehangten ( hang together ) principle, a correct-handle construction, a Prime Mover, and something special behind storksbills "principles" ..

There are two main things that I find myself thinking about and I’m determined to check them out methodically.

One is levers because many believe that Bessler found a work around for them.

If using levers or lever-weights you must break or circumvent ( find a workaround ) for the Law of Levers ( LOL = MA x SR ) which is just a variable ratio always totaling the same .. not telling you anything new there .. the idea being to create a continuous ( or on average positive / asymmetric ) torque ..

The second is pendulums and I want to hopefully start a discussion on them by asking a question.

Here is the question.

Most people have experimented a lot with pendulums myself included. There are some things about them though that I still have doubts about.

We all know that if you put two typical balanced hanging weights on a wheel and give it a spin that the forces at work will eventually even out and the wheel will just grind to a halt.

If on the other hand these pendulums are not just simple hanging weights but mechanisms that are hanging from a pivot then what? Does it always end the same way no matter what make up the mechanism has?

I would find it interesting to hear what forum members say.

For me it's impossible to speculate without a clearer picture of what mechanism(s) you have in mind, and what causes it/them to morph shape etc - if we use your last sim example we know that the "mechanism" will morph shape, but will not cause continuous imbalance and accelerate a wheel consistently building RPM - it does the opposite .. now we are to imagine a "mechanism" hanging from a pivot so that it is effectively a "flexing/morphing" pendulum ? - probably need more detail to give any sort of analytical answer ..

[Sam Peppiatt]

Fletcher / Graham,
Sorry, I missed any movement of any thing-----------------Sam

[Roxaway59]

Hi Fletcher, what I'm getting at with these pendulums goes something like this.

We all know what a typical pendulum does when its on a wheel. However pendulums with mechanisms on them can be made to behave differently as they travel around the wheel.

Bearing in mind that as far as the wheel is concerned in order for it to be balanced it just requires that both pendulums what ever their design are the same weight.

If a wheel is say turning clock wise the pendulum on the left will feel more gravity than the one on the right. We can make pendulums that can react to this and behave differently.

What I hope to show is that pendulums with mechanisms designed to behave a certain way rather than behaving just like a rod with a weight attached can maybe go over unity or because they are designed to act a certain way can be used alongside other mechanisms on the wheel enabling it to go over unity.

I know its a bit vague but I will start posting some ideas soon.

Graham

[Fletcher]

OK Graham, looking forward to your ideas regarding pendulums and how they may be viewed differently in different contexts ..

I do understand that you are turning over pet rocks for the illusive PM Principle - it's gotta happen in order to unearth it ..

And fwiw .. I don't want to come across as critical of any idea or investigation direction - all I try to do is stay impersonal and apply some analysis techniques to sims etc and let the author be the judge of whether it is on point etc ..

Slogan for a tee-shirt .. " Science doesn't care what you believe " ;7)

fwiw I also think that pendulums were an important part of B's. solution to a runner - for me because they feature heavily in his DT engravings, and altho mentioned by him for speed regulation purposes ( never required as witnessed by steady rotation ) were never physically sighted in action or otherwise .. absence of evidence in this case is not evidence of absence, imo .. and secondly the C & D toys of the Toys Page ( center of page ) being oscillating configurations gaining and losing PE, somewhat similar to a pendulum swinging back and forth, imo ..

Till the morrow ..

[Sam Peppiatt]

FWEIW,
I've worked with pendulums a lot and, I found a good way to reset them. About the best that can be achieved is having them drive for 90 degrees and reset in 90 degrees. But, to do that they have to reset twice as fast as the wheel is turning. That's the killer / the acceleration of it.

Velocity is the rate of change of position; acceleration is the rate of change of velocity. So; to move the pendulum twice as fast, it takes twice as much power; then what you can get back out of it.

However, you should go ahead and try it and learn for your self---------------Sam

ETA I'm fairly certain now that the resetting / shifting of the weights has to be continuous.

[Robinhood46]

Slogan for a tee-shirt .. " Science doesn't care what you believe " ;7)

On the back you might want to write "and reality doesn't care what science believes".

[Fletcher]

FWEIW, I've worked with pendulums a lot and, I found a good way to reset them.

About the best that can be achieved is having them drive for 90 degrees and reset in 90 degrees. But, to do that they have to reset twice as fast as the wheel is turning. That's the killer / the acceleration of it.

Velocity is the rate of change of position; acceleration is the rate of change of velocity. So; to move the pendulum twice as fast, it takes twice as much power; then what you can get back out of it.

However, you should go ahead and try it and learn for your self---------------Sam

ETA I'm fairly certain now that the resetting / shifting of the weights has to be continuous.

Good, practical observations Sam, that many will recognize because they found out the same things - at least you found a good way to reset them which is not that easy in a rotating wheel ..

Personally I think it will take quite a novel way of using pendulum-like mechanics in a wheel to make a runner .. to further clarify what I speculated on yesterday B. showed 2 pendulums ( in opposition ) in each of the DT engravings of the Merseburg and Kassel wheels - and for those perhaps wondering how I connected that directly to the Toy's Page items C and D hammermen oscillating toys, it is purely because 2 pendulums are shown per wheel in DT, and 2 oscillating hammermen in MT, also shown in opposition, in prominent page positions - seems more than a little coincidental to me ..

ETA .. Bwaahaahaa RH6 .. think I'll get one printed lol ..

[Roxaway59]

Its about 250,000 miles to the moon at its maximum distance. I sometimes think about that when I look at the mileage on my old car. Its a really good job though that I didn’t drive it there because a couple of weeks ago my gear box came grinding to a halt signalling the end of my trusty old car. This would of course left me stranded on the moon surface and I have not got sufficient breakdown cover.

Then just to remind me that life is never simple, out of the blue the washing machine suddenly started to make an ear piercing racket tempting me to throw my cup of tea over my shoulder in shock. Now I am completely on my guard waiting for the third one to strike.

No it hasn’t stopped me looking at Algodoo and WM2D from time to time but you can bet it has slowed me down as I struggle to navigate the mine field that is buying a second hand car.

I call the pendulums that I put mechanisms on reactive pendulums and I have noticed a difference between them and normal pendulums.

The difference in Algodoo is the most notable but I have no reason to take Algodoo too seriously and I have reached the conclusion that the program is just too problematic to check this out properly with.

WM2D does seem to indicate that reactive pendulums do something different than just weights or normal pendulums so I will continue to experiment with these in the hope that I find something significant.

I realise of course that just because they behave differently this does not have to mean that they are doing anything special. The whole reason I am doing this is to see if there is any possible way to get them to react in a way that shifts their weight beneficially to the wheels rotation.

Graham

[Fletcher]

Whatever you do don't check on your pet cat in the Schrodinger box ..

[Sam Peppiatt]

Graham,
That was a good thing all right; I mean towing your car back from the moon------------the cost would have been astronomical--------------------Sam

[Roxaway59]

My old car never made it back from the moon I am sad to say I just hope I don't get a parking ticket.

I have been having a rethink about Algodoo and I just wanted to share my thoughts on it.

In my last post I said that I would be just using WM2D instead of Algodoo because of the problems associated with the program.

Recently however after giving it some thought I think I have a way of approaching Algodoo that makes it a bit more useful and dependable as an indicator of something significant.

I may be repeating myself but it is worth saying again.

All simulators have one thing in common in that you can be sure that all the makers never envisaged people like us trying to simulate what is suppose to be impossible.

In order for us to do this it is useful for the software to be able to give us a sign, however small that some principal we are working on may be the one that leads to solving the puzzle.

In order for that to happen accuracy is really important because recognising something important with a simulator that is set with low accuracy is almost impossible in my opinion.

Very often it leads to a real build when in reality the real build doesn’t stand a chance.

With this in mind I would like to recommend something to Algodoo users.

Keep the accuracy on no less than 2400. For those who don’t know how to do this go into Open Options next to File, then Simulation, then in Simulation Frequency type in 2400.

What ever simulation you do for a wheel don’t have it on anything less than 2400. It is still possible to get some designs working even at this level but most wont. Unfortunately if you set the figure a lot higher than this I am not at all sure it is making things more accurate.

Next turn air resistance off.

Air resistance is too problematic in Algodoo and it isn’t really needed to check wheels out so to avoid being led down the garden path turn it off.

If you use springs on your design always put some dampening on and I would recommend as a rule 0.5.

If you have decided to use ropes then forget it. I have never found a successful way of using them in Algodoo they are way too problematic and always seem to add energy to the system especially with the air resistance off.

I will try some designs myself using these settings and see if it behaves more like WM2D.

I hope that this is of some use to other Algodoo users.

Graham

[Robinhood46]

If you have decided to use ropes then forget it. I have never found a successful way of using them in Algodoo they are way too problematic and always seem to add energy to the system especially with the air resistance off.

I even think there should ba a law passed, where the words "Algodoo" and "rope" cannot be used in the same paragraph.
Just in case it causes some kind of dimensional shift and we find ourselves in a different dimension, where objects no longer respect physics.