A good lead ?

[Robinhood46]

Hi everyone,
If you rely on this model, there is no chance that it will work we agree.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0KaJZ_epdE&t=57s

We do agree on this, but I'm not sure we agree there is no chance that it will work, for the same reasons.

My view is that it will not work because the COG is shifting form 8.45 to 3.15 (Theoretically if the arms were fixed as in our more recent tries and everything worked optimally), which can not give us anything, unless we find a way of causing the shifting of the COG at an earlier moment.
8 - 1.30, or 7 to 12.30, or even better still 6 to 11.30.

My argument being that when the COG is at 6, it is at the end of it's descent and has stored enough energy to get all the way back up to 11.45, if nothing changes to it's current state, because it will have been accelerated by gravity from 12. Where things become very questionable, is that any attempt at pausing the descending weight, has the effect of shifting the COG from 6 very near to the axle, to 9 very near to the rim. Which is where, to use Fletcher's words "Tarsier79 is not wrong, as far as his energy budget analysis goes".

I'm not sure exactly why you think it will not work, or how you hope to get it to work, by balancing everything for a fraction of the rotation, but i am keen to see your progress.
Fletcher also said "Keep looking for that mechanical Workaround, it was found once and can be found again".

[thx4]

With 100 grs of thrust a bicycle wheel for example can make more than 200 revolutions before having exhausted the starting energy.
I'm less greedy, I ask it for ¼ turn, that should be enough and I don't have any weight to lift...
I understand that the Ideal HERE is to post a working wheel, it avoids the much more encouraging “it won't work” 🙂
It's going to take a while.

[thx4]

https://youtu.be/Zrm6D-z4ZGk

Voici enfin ce que je veux dire, le système alterne entre équilibre et déséquilibre.
Avec l'inertie le ressort se tend et remet en place plus vite que ne le ferait la gravité.
Le manque de précision comme le positionnement du ressort, les engrenages, bref beaucoup d'éléments ne sont pas adaptés.
Je revois cette semaine l'ensemble du prototype qui sera beaucoup plus simple.

The system alternates between equilibrium and disequilibrium.
With inertia, the spring tightens and snaps back into place faster than gravity would.
The lack of precision, such as the positioning of the spring, the gears, in short many elements are not adapted.
This week I'm going over the whole prototype, which is much simpler.

[agor95]

Everything I present isn't functional, doesn't work, and serves no purpose - it's purely rhetorical. Thank you

When one reads paragraph after paragraph of descriptive prose one feels the rhetorical more than the recreational nature of the text.

However I think the most part is not to supply the solution on a plate.
But guild those that have eyes to see how to make a plate with the device upon it.

P.S. Some will not succeed.

[thx4]

https://youtu.be/s--97t8tdTo
A single moving arm is a little better.
The spring is more efficient, too efficient...

[thx4]

https://youtu.be/aWi7eBg_YZY
Change of spring and adjustable tension, we are in an acceptable model concerning the idea, it remains to vary a little the fixed weights..

[Fletcher]

Everything I present isn't functional, doesn't work, and serves no purpose - it's purely rhetorical. Thank you

When one reads paragraph after paragraph of descriptive prose one feels the rhetorical more than the recreational nature of the text.

However I think the most part is not to supply the solution on a plate.

But guide those that have eyes to see how to make a plate with the device upon it.

P.S. Some will not succeed.

Hi Agor .. fwiw, my contributions are in the main to assist members to better understand and analyze their designs potential, i.e. its good points and its shortcomings .. from that we all have the opportunity to learn something, or adjust our focus etc ..

For thousands of years thousands of gravity PM chasers have have tried to make an unbalanced wheel - with total success I might add - it is a doddle to make an unbalanced wheel so that it is affected by the pull of gravity and therefore has a torque around the axle to turn it - sustaining the rotation is the problem ..

i.e. the torques generated ( i.e. turning forces ) are exactly equalized for the positive and negative directions in each wheel sector ( if multiple duplicate sectors ) - so they are unbalanced in one direction then unbalanced in the opposite direction by an equal amount of turning force - after system energy losses to frictions they eventually oscillate back and forwards and "keel" at the death knell ..

A way to overcome this design and mechanical limitation to net positive imbalance / overbalance is to add external energy into the system that needs constant and regular replenishing ..

This can come about from 2 potential sources - 'real' energy ( equivalent of calorific content - of which we have examples ) within the system which needs replacing periodically - or 'pseudo' energy constantly entering the system ..

The pseudo type is harder to imagine because there are no real practical physical examples to call on - the best I can do is substitute a parallel idea of a continuously overbalancing mechanism(s) whose natural and preferred state is to rotate / self move - this requires a different type of mechanical design and setup than the previous temporary unbalanced 'equal-torques' wheels which fade and stop - this arrangement will be designed to have a positive net torque in one direction to keep it permanently rotating as its preferred state .. IMO ..

thx4 is attempting to get to this state of net-imbalance conditions in all his builds, which he generously videos and shows so that we may also get better at analyzing the inputs and outputs - and from that shared experience someone may be inspired to find the Workaround to the continuously unbalanced wheel configuration .. but first we have to understand the what and why something doesn't "Work" and that is where the community discussions can add value to consolidating and summarizing the 'facts' of an experiment etc ..

[SHADOW]

Difficile de passer après vous Fletcher!!

Hard to pass after you Fletcher!!

[thx4]

Hard to pass after you Fletcher!!

Fletcher is a very bright member (fortunately for us).
Concerning the continuation, I thought for a long time that the moving weights had to be connected, so I put gears (error), they are connected but by reciprocity.

[agor95]

Hi Fletcher

fwiw, my contributions are in the main to assist members to better understand and analyze their designs potential, i.e. its good points and its shortcomings .. from that we all have the opportunity to learn something, or adjust our focus etc ..

I agree you and Jim_Mich have supplied a valid litmus test on the bitter or sweet analysis of a persons concept.

Guiding a person to see what barriers are before them is a bitter pill to swallow, but a required medication to save time and effort.

Regards

[Fletcher]

Hey thx4 .. here what the sim predicts would happen in this situation .. see graphed out trends and the System COM black and white icon as it moves about ..

n.b. the wheel has grey weights attached because otherwise WM2D treats background disks as point masses, and this gives it some extra Inertia ..

Input .. the wheel is given a rotating force for 1 second of -10 RPM - this gives the system an initial RPM and KE until the force is removed ..

Because the 'handles' are directly geared there is no resistance to either falling under gravity .. just 1 spring assist is attached ..

cheers ..

...................



...................

[Tarsier79]

Hi THX

Sorry, I didn't mean to piss you off.

Besslers wheel IMO had 2 main components to his wheel. This is easily one of them, just as much as many of the MTs are.

It is clearly missing the 2nd component.

Additionally, the geared opposed lever just happens to be what I use in WM2D to simulate a 3rd dimension lever...So, while missing the component that will actually make it spin, it is useful as a simple OB lever mech.

Anyway. Good luck with your experiments. I hope you learn from them and expand on your knowledge.

[Robinhood46]

I don't want to criticise THX4 for not explaining very well, but he doesn't explain very well.
The wheel we can see is only a wheel because we can see it as one, therefore we presume it to be one. It isn't a wheel, or more correctly, as things progress it will no longer be a wheel.
Once things progress, hopefully in the right direction, the wheel will disappear and the arms will either be connected to a "crossbar" of some description, or they will be connected to each other independent of the wheel. "They are connected but by reciprocity" to use THX4's words.

If you look at the video that we all agree doesn't work, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0KaJZ_epdE&t=57s you can skip right to the end and see, when i show the mechanism hidden behind, that causes the effect of the engaging and disengaging of the wights with the wheel, this shows something more similar to what we are heading for, than what THX4 and i am working with at present, although THX4 is doing most of it at present.

You can only see a part of the project, the part we both hope to be the principal behind the shifting of the COG in a favourable manner. We still have a lot of work to do, to get where we can say it's all good, or throw in the towel.
We don't both share the same optimism, and this sometimes changes, and we don't always agree on each and every aspect of where we are going, we both know we are going in roughly the same direction and we both have the same goal. Anyone who has teamed up on this project knows only too well the difficulties that it entails.

If anyone wants to help they could try suggesting or simming different methods of holding and releasing the arms in the alternating positions. Algodoo can't cope with everything i try to simulate, and i am busy with life for a couple of weeks, which is why we are counting THX4 at present.

[Fletcher]

If anyone wants to help they could try suggesting or simming different methods of holding and releasing the arms in the alternating positions. Algodoo can't cope with everything i try to simulate, and i am busy with life for a couple of weeks, which is why we are counting THX4 at present.

I think you are on the right track with your simmed ratchet approach RH - whatever method of holding and releasing you sim, or 3D print, or build on the shop bench, has to be practical and simple to be reliable ..

From your vid Spring assisted Pawls would seem the best choice for all round performance, and Algodoo seems to be able to handle that ..

[ArchCalc]

The best lead I can give now is that the prime mover has four weights that have to move in a straight line.